Wizards: Squishy or All Powerful?

[Diamond Cross]

So, you agree that spells are more important than most other considerations, and the best way to for a warrior type to beat a wizard is to somehow acquire spells of his own?

No, just the right equipment. Don't try to twist my argument.

However, spells are just another form of equipment when you think about it.

 

[Victim]

No, just the right equipment. Don't try to twist my argument.

However, spells are just another form of equipment when you think about it.

No, it's more like magical equipment is just another form of spells.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

So what it comes down to is initiative. And randomness can have a heck of an effect on play. If the fighter goes first wait for the Wizard to start casting then attack. BAM! Spell disrupted. Wizard moves a step back, take a step forward. If the Wizard turns and run, BAM! Attack of opportunity.

Or the wizard could take a 5 foot step (not drawing an OA) and cast. That's what a wizard does if cornered.

A smart fighter always waits until the wizard starts casting so he can have a chance to disrupt the spell.

Seeing how I mentioned this very tactic earlier, you shouldn't assume I forgot about it. Melee is very bad at disrupting spells however, since the wizard is free to move. The wizard can even take an AoO if they're going to use Greater Invisibility and never get hit again for the fight, and that's only if the wizard is reallyu unlucky. You'd be better off using an archer ranger. That way, a five foot step won't nerf your attack, and I think you can ready a Multiattack too. (Plus Listen as a class skill; you might be able to target the wizard.)

Give the fighter a Ring of Spell Turning, or a Ring Of Spell Storing, or even both, and, well, there goes much of the Wizard's spells right back at him.

In the previous examples, we were talking 5th to 7th or 10th level wizards. A Ring of Spell Storing is way too risky. You don't know what spell the wizard preps. A Ring of Spell Turning is much more effective but also much more expensive.

This doesn't count racial abilities such as the Elve's immunity to some spells. And some races get natural SR.

Elven immunities are well known; if the wizard is casting enchantment spells at an elf, they're doing something wrong. Good thing I prep Glitterdust, which bypasses SR entirely and would have been a good choice even without that. But of course the fighter can use a magic item to hide their race. But that would require magic.

Like I said, I've done this before.

 

[Diamond Cross]

Like I said, I've done this before.

So have I. We can go around and around in circles. For every thing you come up with a smart fighter and an imaginative player can counter without the need to nerf anything.

If a fighter can't beat a Wizard then the player is playing the fighter wrong or is the other player is smarter than the player who's playing the fighter.

And by the way, a simple bag of flour kills invisibility. For every step a Wizard makes a fighter can make and stay within reach. And pole arms have longer reaches than a sword.

And with the right maneuvering can make the Wizard fall into a ten foot spike laden pit which could cause poison and disease damage to the Wizard.

Or cause him trip over the rogue who's ready to trip him from behind.

Or simply use an action to trip a Wizard. Whoops, the Wizard's now suffering from being prone.

 

[Diamond Cross]

Whoops, double post.

 

[JoeGKushner]

But all of those arguements really only matter when it's PvP.

It's one of the things I think people tend to forget that at its core gaming examples, it's expected that the party works together no?

 

[Diamond Cross]

It's one of the things I think people tend to forget that at its core gaming examples, it's expected that the party works together no?

Correct.

However, the player's party can come across an NPC party that contains the all powerful Godly god of gods Wizard.

Wizards and fighters are meant to work as a team to compliment each others strengths and compensate for each others weaknesses.

Such as being a bodyguard for the Wizard, and if the fighter is facing a lot of opponents even the odds by summoning a monster.

That's what the game is meant to do. Encourage people to work together as a team.

Not be a one size fits all approach.

 

[Puggins]

Bull. Utter crapola.
I know I'm not going to change your mind on the matter. Once somebody's beliefs are locked in it's completely impossible to change their minds, regardless of the evidence. I've beaten plenty of Wizards in my time with a lowly fighter and they all used spells like that against me. I've also been beaten by many Wizards too, but mostly because I just misjudged them or I had a run of bad luck with the dice rolls.

The claim "spell automatically counters X" means one is talking in generalities. They're also forgetting or willfully ignoring the spell disruption rules. It's a powerful disadvantage any caster has. It's a poor way to argue.

A couple of observations.

(1) This is a thread about the survivability of a wizard, not how effective a wizard is when dueling a fighter. At 7th+ level, my experience- and the experience of quite a few other people, I might add- is that a wizard's ability to survive attack is at least comparable to a fighter's, despite a substantial difference in hit points.

(2) There have been dozens, if not hundreds, of wizard vs. fighter duel threads, including a ton of challenge threads. You can google them both here and on the WotC forums. The short version of practically every thread is that things almost never turn out well for the fighter.

* The wizard has many, many spells which ignore spell turning and spell resistance. Look at Evard's Black Tentacles, for one. The grapple check for the spell is.... impressive.

* Spell Turning is very, very expensive. A fighter of 10th level isn't going to have a Ring of Spell Turning.

* The Wizard can play the same game as the fighter- ready a spell.

* Or the wizard can simply cast an interrupting spell, like Greater Mirror Image.

* The fighter simply doesn't have the saving throws to match up with the wizard. One blown save essentially kills the fighter.

You can respond to these points. But please google those threads. Many very intelligent players have gamed out this same scenario tons of times. The TLR version is the fighter only has a chance if he starts within one move of the wizard AND the fighter wins initiative AND the fighter is armed with a Spiked Chain. If one of these three is not true, the fighter stands no chance. If all of these are true, the fighter stands a small chance.

And of course, this assumes that both players are highly skilled and knowledgeable. If the wizard is piloted by someone who doesn't possess a reasonable level of system mastery, all bets are off.

* the fighter can either ready an action to disrupt or ready an action to move when the wizard moves, he can't do both.

 

[Diamond Cross]

(1) This is a thread about the survivability of a wizard, not how effective a wizard is when dueling a fighter. At 7th+ level, my experience- and the experience of quite a few other people, I might add- is that a wizard's ability to survive attack is at least comparable to a fighter's, despite a substantial difference in hit points.

I wasn't the one who turned this into a fighter vs wizard thread.

But it was inevitable that it would be turned into one.

 

[CuRoi]

And a fighter is pathetic without their gamut of AC-boosting items. Throw them both in jail, they're pretty weak. But at least the wizard doesn't forget his spells until he casts them. So if the fighter prison mate tries anything, he's still going to be frozen in place, then get shived (CdG) with his own weapon.

You need more creative law enforcement. Wizard in jail should = Tongue removed, hands broken / removed in the nastier evil parts. In the more civilized areas, they should at least beat him senseless and bind and gag him. Afflunet societies have magical restraints specifically designed for criminal mages that pretty much neuter them. I also house rule a mage who was "dying" or knocked out due to trauma (non-lethal damage) loses his spells so the locals have a way of disarming him without going to the extemes.

Of course, once in jail the spellbook should be confiscated and sold or, since it was used to commit criminal acts, most likely destroyed. This pretty much screws a mage, but would be expected of a society that had to deal with magical criminals on a regular basis. The fighter can at least pick up the food tray and kill the guard with it if they have to The mage is helpless and possibly at square one (without certain feats, backup spell books, etc.)