Herores of the Fallen Lands - Are Slayers underpowered?

[KarinsDad]

95% chance to hit on each of two attacks. Makes a chance of 0.95 times 0.95 chance of hitting with both attacks.

Take a nova round of a slayer for example. (I know bad example as it is also from HotFL)

You can easily achieve a hit bonus of +9 at first level. Damage is about 1d10+8. Against a first level brute you deal 3d10+16 damage with your nova. Your chance to hit with a little help from a friend it is about 95% hit chance against AC 15 IF you go for poised assault.

Compare this to a thief´s 4d6+14 (18-38) damage on a nova. Even a striker with about no nova potential comes ahead of a thief.

The Thief I just put together:

DPR Ranged Dagger (no Sneak Attack): 0.20*0 + 0.75*10.5 + 0.05*12 = 8.475
DPR Charge Backstab Acrobat's Trick: 0.5*0 + 0.95*29.5 + 0.05*44 = 30.225

38.7 DPR

And because he is using Backstab, he continues to hit higher AC foes when Nova is needed. The Slayer's DPR drops faster against the type of foes that a Nova is needed against.


Assuming that the Slayer you just posted can get to 95% (which is not guaranteed: +3 prof, +5 str, +1 talent, +1 poise = 80%):

DPR Power Strike: 0.05*0 + 0.95*19 + 0.05*28 = 19.45
DPR: 0.05*0 + 0.95*13.5 + 0.05*18 = 13.725

DPR: 33.175

And with +8 damage, it means that he cannot be Human. So, no second feat.


He didn't wipe the floor over the Thief with his nova. He actually lost. And that's with help to get him to a 95% hit range (normally, he would be at 75%, 80% with Poised Assault, 85% with Poised Assault and a Charge).


The Thief does not need allies giving him an edge. He gives it to himself.


No, the Thief is not the best Nova-ing Striker. But, he's not terrible and he can hold his own. But, day in and day out, he's hitting, especially against higher AC foes.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

No, the Thief is not the best Nova-ing Striker. But, he's not terrible and he can hold his own. But, day in and day out, he's hitting, especially against higher AC foes.

Overpowered/balanced/underpowered is about more than DPR though. Sure the Thief hits better than the Slayer in these examples, but he lacks the hit points and heavier defences the Slayer has. Every class has strengths and weaknesses. There is more to the game than damage.

I've pointed this out before, as have several others. We're still on the same merry-go-round it seems.

 

[KarinsDad]

Overpowered/balanced/underpowered is about more than DPR though. Sure the Thief hits better than the Slayer in these examples, but he lacks the hit points and heavier defences the Slayer has. Every class has strengths and weaknesses. There is more to the game than damage.

I've pointed this out before, as have several others. We're still on the same merry-go-round it seems.

I only compared him to the Slayer because that was UngeheuerLich's example.

Course, the Slayer (above example, although it would do a little more DPR for a feat) isn't THAT more better defensively at first level than the Thief (above example):

Half-Orc Slayer, 20 Str, 16 Dex, 11 Con:

AC: 17
Fort: 15
Reflex: 13
Will: 10
Hit Points: 26

Human Thief, 20 Dex, 14 Con:

AC: 17
Fort: 13
Reflex: 16
Will: 11
Hit Points: 26

Your point?

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I only compared him to the Slayer because that was UngeheuerLich's example.

I don't care what you compare him to. You can compare him to anything you want. Every class has strengths and weaknesses. They are relatively balanced in the grand scheme of the entire game.

Course, the Slayer (above example, although it would do a little more DPR for a feat) isn't THAT more better defensively at first level than the Thief (above example):

Half-Orc Slayer, 20 Str, 16 Dex, 11 Con:

AC: 17
Fort: 15
Reflex: 13
Will: 10
Hit Points: 26

Human Thief, 20 Dex, 14 Con:

AC: 17
Fort: 13
Reflex: 16
Will: 11
Hit Points: 26

Your point?

Ah, but here you're sacrificing one of the Thief's other strong suits (skills) for hit points. That 20 Dex / 14 Con is costly. This thief might be tough and hard to hit, but has crap for Athletics, Bluff, etc.

You only further my point by illustrating that the game is more than just combat. This Thief of yours is a stealthy damage machine that can pick locks, but can't do much else. No social graces, no jumping, no perception.

If you build a more versatile Thief, you know, the kind you actually see at the table, his high damage isn't quite so high.

And this is just a snapshot, at first level. The Slayer's hit points are going to scale better. No amount of investment in Con is going to allow the Thief to keep up.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

I only compared him to the Slayer because that was UngeheuerLich's example.

Course, the Slayer (above example, although it would do a little more DPR for a feat) isn't THAT more better defensively at first level than the Thief (above example):

Half-Orc Slayer, 20 Str, 16 Dex, 11 Con:

AC: 17
Fort: 15
Reflex: 13
Will: 10
Hit Points: 26

Human Thief, 20 Dex, 14 Con:

AC: 17
Fort: 13
Reflex: 16
Will: 11
Hit Points: 26

Your point?

You dont build a Half-orc slayer with STR you build it with DEX and CON

 

[KarinsDad]

Ah, but here you're sacrificing one of the Thief's other strong suits (skills) for hit points. That 20 Dex / 14 Con is costly. This thief might be tough and hard to hit, but has crap for Athletics, Bluff, etc.

You only further my point by illustrating that the game is more than just combat. This Thief of yours is a stealthy damage machine that can pick locks, but can't do much else. No social graces, no jumping, no perception.

Can't do much else?

A post ago your point was that Slayers have better hit points and defenses, and that's what balanced them out with Thieves. When I illustrated that as not necessarily accurate, you are now calling this Thief lousy at skills. Make up your mind. This Thief has 10 Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery. That's 3 skills that he has that are stronger on average than the Slayer's 3 trained skills.

In addition, this Thief has 3 other trained skills at 5. Again, 3 skills better than any others of the Slayer.

Is a 5 Perception really awful compared to a 7 of some other Thieves? Hardly. 10% of the time, he would miss a Perception roll that he would otherwise make. Some other Thieves don't take Perception at all. That doesn't mean that this Thief cannot do it as you claim.

And it's still a better Perception than most PCs.

And there are items or feats that could boost any of his skills if he wanted.

You appear to be arguing just to argue.

This Thief is better at combat than that Slayer and better at skills.

There is nothing wrong with this Thief. He doesn't match your world view of a well designed Thief, but who cares about that? He would make a fine addition to a lot of teams. You just don't like the fact that he not only averaged better DPR than the Slayer (who could use a feat to get a better weapon), but he also averaged better defenses, better skills, the same hit points, more healing surges, and was better at nova-ing at first level.

Sure, that Slayer will someday have a significant number of additional hit points more. And, there will be a few other things that he might be better than the Thief. But, that's hardly the point now, is it? This Thief is easily that Slayer's better, both in and out of combat at first level and for many levels after that (e.g. weapon talent at level 2 gives him an additional edge in combat once again).


Now I'm sure we'll hear how some other Striker is better. zzzzzzzz

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

zzzzzzzz

Ok, you're the one who set up the stats. Typically, what I said is true, and you point out the one case where a Thief makes a bunch of sacrifices to keep up to another class in an area they aren't strong. Fine. It can be done, but it's not typical, and hardly in their best interests.

I am through arguing with you. You believe whatever you like, you can set up your numbers to illustrate your point all day long, but it's all just theorycraft, and has little to do with what I've seen at the gaming table. You can call that anecdotal if you want, because it is, but that doesn't change the fact that reality doesn't always turn out the same as the theory.

You don't like the Thief, fine, ban the class in your games. The rest of us will do just fine with them. They're not unbalanced, overpowered, or underpowered. They're a class that has differing strengths and weaknesses when compared to other classes, striker or no.

Talk about argument for the sake of argument.

Every D&D forum has its 'Roy' I guess, and lucky me, I found him again.

 

[KarinsDad]

You dont build a Half-orc slayer with STR you build it with DEX and CON

You could.

But then you'd be giving up Power Strike, the ability to get into heavier armor (at least until much later), some of the stances that are limited to or work better with melee weapons, etc.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

You could.

But then you'd be giving up Power Strike, the ability to get into heavier armor (at least until much later), some of the stances that are limited to or work better with melee weapons, etc.

I think he's implying Melee Training (Dex), not bow use.

 

[KarinsDad]

You believe whatever you like, you can set up your numbers to illustrate your point all day long, but it's all just theorycraft, and has little to do with what I've seen at the gaming table. You can call that anecdotal if you want, because it is, but that doesn't change the fact that reality doesn't always turn out the same as the theory.

Precisely.

I've seen a 20 Str first level Slayer at my gaming table.

And, I've seen a 20 Dex first level Thief at my gaming table.

It's not as much theorycraft as you claim, course, that's because it doesn't match your anecdotal experience.

It does match mine though. It's damn easy to trick out a Thief. It's not that hard to trick out a Slayer.

They will lose out damage-wise to 4E core Striker classes once they get high enough levels, but then again, they'll often survive to get there.