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How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

Those objections are what hold back D&D warriors from achieving equity with D&D spellcasters. Spellcasters get to do that because it's magic, hey!, but warriors don't get to do that because they're not magical, hey!.

D&D warriors need to be magical. They need to be as clever as Odysseus, as strong as Hercules, as invulnerable as Achilles. Or, as clever as Batman, as strong as the Hulk, as invulnerable as Superman. Since it's ultimately the same thing.

Because D&D has had a problem embracing the idea that warriors of enough skill just make things happen, as if by magic, it's a persistent problem.

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Why can't my rogue effectively be magical (even if it's handwaived for the modern myths as "really just very skilled and very practiced")? Why can't my rogue have prepared for every contingency and acquired the right weapon for every battle?

Why can't my rogue climb walls without having to roll a friggin' skill check? And why does the Wizard, who should not be as good at this sort of thing, get to?
KM, just in case it wasn't clear my earlier post about metagame mechanics was meant to be in sympathy with your criticism of D&D's traditional approach. Purist-for-system simulationism - which gives us skill checks, mundane limits on mortal abilities, etc - in combination with it's magic for wizards, which means the simulation permits them to bypass skill checks, mundane limits etc - produces the D&D experience of disparit between wizards and warriors.

There are simulationist systems out there that reduce this disparity - Rolemaster, for example, while still suffering from a wizards-overshadowing-warriors problem, doesn't suffer as badly from it as does D&D because of the greater constraints that RM wizards labour under (in terms of skill development, spell selection and skill rolls for using spells). But the underlying tension is nevertheless there.

But the other point I was trying to make is that there is a lot of player support for this unstable, disparity-inducing approach. The attempt by 4e to move away in certain respects has been one of the key points of criticism of 4e. How often have your heard "4e fighters have spells now"? - which makes sense only if the underlying logic is one of denying the metagame character of a power like Come and Get It, and of assuming that the astounding prowess, foresight and/or luck that this power signals is occurring in the gameworld must have been produced, as if by magic, by the figher in question.

The equally great strength and great weakness of metagaming effects is that they require the participants to provide the world context. It is a strength when the participants have a view of the world that makes providing the context easy. It is a weakness when the view is otherwise.
I think that, in practice, this depends upon what the mechanics in question are.

The HeroQuest 2nd ed rulebook gives an example of the player of a cowboy with Fast Runner 10w suggesting that his PC will outrun the horse, whose Gallop is only 18. The suggested way of handling this: in any sort of mainstream western game, the attempt is disallowed, as it fails the genre-reality constraint on scene-framing; but in a supers western, it would be permissible. I agree that for this sort of constraint on metagame mechanics to work, the ability of the participants to provide world context matters.

But Come and Get It - being a much more tightly defined and circumscribed power - very rarely gives rise to this sort of problem. At least in my experience, it is very rare for there to be any difficulty in explaining why or how the pull took place - be it footwork, taunting, feigning a weakness to trigger a rush, or whatever. Apart from anything else, there is a reasonable chance that the fighter with Come and Get It will have other features of his/her build that emphasise and take advantage of forced movement and/or area attacks - so the use of Come and Get It will just be one more event in a whole sequence of displays of battlefield control. (Again in my exeperience, the existence of effects like Come and Get It is part of what makes the fighter play so very differently from a ranger or even a paladin.) The "problem" of improbably taunting archers and sorcerers into a losing close combat just doesn't come up very often. And the ability to trick and/or force archers and sorcerer who have got within fifteen feet of the fighter into a losing close combat isn't improbable at all - it's just a display of the fighter's close combat virtuosity.

Likewise for KM's example of the rogue not needing to make a skill check to climb - only if the wall is the world's slickest wall of ice, and the narration has rendered the rogue naked and without rope or tools, will there be any difficulty in narrating his/her success at the climb. Apart from anything else - if in a standard skill check system it would be possible for the rogue to succeed (and in RM this is always so, via open-ended rolls) then just narrate the automatic success in whatever terms you would narrate the improbable success under the skill check approach.

Why can't my rogue have prepared for every contingency and acquired the right weapon for every battle?
This would be great. But I don't think it will be all that popular. I remember a couple of years ago, when someone was asking how Diplomacy might be used in a skill challenge to open the gates of Moria, I replied that it was fairly easy - the player of the PC simply narrates a flashback in which his/her PC spoke to a loremaster wise in magic passwords, and persuaded that loremaster to tell him/her the most powerful and universal ones. (Of coures, the GM might be expected to set a high DC for this sort of check. And the flashback would have to be plausible, given everything else that was known about the gameworld and the PC in question.)

My suggestion was met with general (although not uniform) derision.

Now my example is vulnerable to Crazy Jerome's concerns - it depends upon the participants sharing a sense as to what is and is not permissible in scene-framing - whereas I think that the sorts of metagame mechanics you are after (like the rogue example above) can mostly survive Crazy Jerome's concern. But I think they will nevertheless continue to attract the hostility of simulationist gamers. Because what you are asking for is for the rogue to do something in the gameworld that does not correspond, in causal/temporal sequence, to the mechanic you are using. And this is what simulationist gamers don't like - they are not moved by Crazy Jerome's concerns, which operate at a more abstract and removed level of reflection on workable game design.

By playing the "I have a counter to that" power, or by using a flashback to try and resolve a skill challenge, you are now - in the middle of the current situation - stipulating the consequences of some action that your PC took days or years ago in the gameworld. (This is what makes it a metagame rather than simulationist mechanic.) And this is what attracts the pejorative labels of "pop quiz roleplaying", "retconning", "quantum wounding" (or, in this case, "quantum equipment lists" or "quantum backstory"), etc, etc.

I'm not defending those labels - recently most of the effort I've spent on these boards has been trying to repudiate them - but they seem to have a widespread currency among D&D players. But many of those players also seem to want high magic. And hence we get the enduring problem of the disparity between wizards and warriors.
 
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[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION],

I'm not really disagreeing with any of your last post, but I will say that while there is a distinction between my concern and KM's, there is also a correlation between them. Specifically, when someone is of a "more simulationist" bent than the game system supports, on some particular point, then the objections are rooted in dislike of metagaming construct and a mismatch between the player's view of the simulated reality and the perceived flow from the narrative mechanic to the simulated reality.

Gee, that's dense text! :eek:

Some people dislike CAGI because they don't like metagaming constructs (or don't like them in their D&D). Some people dislike it because they think it is not something that the fighter could do each encounter via mundane techniques--no matter how highly trained. And for that matter, some people dislike it because they don't care for the idea of "once per encounter" as a rough pacing mechanism, and CAGI is their poster child for that dislike. :p

But my experience is that most people expressing dislike at CAGI dislike it for a rather vague mishmash of all of those reasons--not infrequently inconsistently held and highly informed by their view of how melee combat works in real life, and then adapted to D&D. (I'm not talking about the dislike of anyone discussing it carefully. I'm talking about the way it frequently gets pulled into "venting" asides or outright rants, albeit more elsewhere than here.)

If it were only one of those things, then it would be easy to deal with. It is the being wedded to the view of the simulated world while dragging the other stuff in, that makes it hard to see clearly, and thus deal with. For example, single objections and simple, obvious solutions (not always easy, mind):

1. Don't like metagaming constructs -- 4E is full of them. Either systematically take them out/replace them, or if that is more work than is warranted, play something else.

2. Don't like the artificialness of the encounter pacing mechanic -- replace with a recharge option, or if that is too much work, play something else.

3. Doesn't map to the view of reality of the game world -- change your view of the game world to fit the mechanic, or change the mechanic to fit your view of the game world. (It would really not destroy the effectiveness of CAGI, which is a very good power, to limit it to opponents with a melee weapon in hand, for example--and having done that, there are no good "reality" objections to it solely on such grounds.)

I believe it was C. S. Lewis that said the issue with most bad critics is not that they were critics (contra Teddy Roosevelt) or lack in the insights or logic that they brought to their criticism, but rather that their criticism assumed that the work should have been written the way they would have written it--their premises, their preferences, their world view. It is one thing to be critical of the author's premises, preferences, and world view--it happens. It is another thing to write such criticism of his works without first bothering to get his premises, preferences, and world view clear in your own mind.

Game consumers, of course, shouldn't be held to as tight a standard as a critic of a written work, at least not until they get to the point of publishing a body of criticism. But I don't really see how anyone expects to get anything out of any version of D&D, much less adapt it to their world view, until they have a reasonably clear idea of what world view that version of D&D implies (or range thereof).
 

I'm chuckling at all of the post talking about how Batman isn't super human.

Well, he has all of these advantages and...

Listen, he's fought Superman several times.

He's fought White Martians.

He's devised plans to take out the JLA (that were used by others quite successfully.)

None of this count the crippling damage he's taken from broken backs and gun shot wounds, to his very ability to evade gun shot wounds and fight off mental control by aliens and other powers.

There are whole list of things he's done that in their context, make him far beyond human.
 


There are whole list of things he's done that in their context, make him far beyond human.

Not from the standpoint of he universe he inhabits- not from his origins.

You take any reasonably fit DC Comics human and give them 15 years to do nothing but train themselves in whatever way they see fit- here, martial arts- and you get the young Batman. (Batman basically repeated his results with Dick Grayson.)

Then you add X many years of continued training on the job, with all the

And still, all he is is a man trained beyond what most would consider sufficient...and yet still not up to the snuff of those who have trained harder and longer.

He knows no magic; he is no mutant; he is no alien.

He is just a man- one of the most trained humans in the world; a paragon of the species.

But still just human.
 

There are whole list of things he's done that in their context, make him far beyond human.
No. All they demonstrate is plot protection. Batman -- both of them now -- is quite human. From his perspective, from the perspective of his friends, family, and (especially) superhero peers, and from the perspective of a reasonable reader.

Batman being "only human" is one of the primary reasons the character has endured!
 

No. All they demonstrate is plot protection. Batman -- both of them now -- is quite human. From his perspective, from the perspective of his friends, family, and (especially) superhero peers, and from the perspective of a reasonable reader.

Batman being "only human" is one of the primary reasons the character has endured!

So when he takes Lady Shive out with one punch, one of the #1 martial artist that's plot protection?

When he's using alien technology that no one else can understand, that's plot protection?

We can talk about normal human all we want but when you read some of Morrison's 'Bat God' bits in JLA and you're sitting there going, "He's still nust a normal human.", these are not 'normal' humans.

and as I mentioned, his numerous crippling injuried that he never suffers from.
 

So when he takes Lady Shive out with one punch, one of the #1 martial artist that's plot protection?
Considering what Lady Shiva has done to him in the past*, I'd say 1) he surprised her and, as boxers say, "hit the button" and 2) while she is more skilled than he is, she's not nearly as tough, she's a bit of a glass cannon.
When he's using alien technology that no one else can understand, that's plot protection?

Don't know the plotline, but I have a feeling there actually are other human characters who could understand it- like Lex Luthor.
and as I mentioned, his numerous crippling injuried that he never suffers from.

Definitely plot protection. Just like DC wasn't going to let Supes moulder in the grave after Doomsday, Bane's breaking of Bat's back wasn't going to be a permanent change.




*
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Lady_Shiva
"Sandra Wu-San is a mercenary assassin who once trained Batman, and is possibly the greatest martial artist alive. One of Batman's true physical rivals."

And

Lady Shiva- Batman Wiki

"Eager to finally face Batman uninterrupted, Shiva knocked Robin unconscious and challenged the Dark Knight. Initially underestimating Shiva and thinking that she was just showing off, Batman soon found that her skills were such that she could kill him, and began to fight in earnest. It took intervention from Robin to knock Shiva unconscious and subdue her for interrogation."
 
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Considering what Lady Shiva has done to him in the past*, I'd say 1) he surprised her and, as boxers say, "hit the button" and 2) while she is more skilled than he is, she's not nearly as tough, she's a bit of a glass cannon.


Don't know the plotline, but I have a feeling there actually are other human characters who could understand it- like Lex Luthor.


Definitely plot protection. Just like DC wasn't going to let Supes moulder in the grave after Doomsday, Bane's breaking of Bat's back wasn't going to be a permanent change.




*


So what we're saying is that characters like Batman can overcome injuries that would lead to permanent crippling effects, outfight the greatest martial artists, use alien technology, create technology that is super human (i.e. when he's fighting Predators in essentially Iron Man armor), etc... but hey, underneath all that plot protection, he's just a normal guy and damn lucky that no one's just randomly shot Bruce Wayne in the head?

I'm going with a different definition then; Protagonist capable of doing whatever the plot demands at any time regardless of how outlandish it may be and at times having enough power to rip apart the universe such as when Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman had evolved into godlike entities in Trinity.

Makes calling him 'normal' seem kinda pointless at that point.

"Well, being killed in the present and travelling through numerous time lines.... and then ... and then..."

At what point would someone go, "Gee, Batman isn't quite human."

When he's using the high tech bits from Kingdom Come? When he's using supernatural weapons? Or does all equipment get a nod of forgiveness too because, hey, in theory "anyone" could use it?
 

So what we're saying is that characters like Batman
This is just ... bizarre.

Are you claiming that James Bond isn't human? Dirk Pitt? Arthur Dent? Any cop on any run-of-the-mill cop show ever?

Are you actually claiming that when a protagonist has survived "too much" crap, or shown "too much" competence, he has, by definition, stopped being human?

I mean, because kinda it looks like that's the claim you're making, and all I can do is just kinda shake my head and say, "Whatever," at that point.
 

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