How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A "normal human" in the DC Universe is not Batman; it's the beat cop whom Batman saves from the Joker.

 

[Hussar]

See, to me, the term superhuman means exactly what it says on the box - more than human. Anyone who is better than human is, by definition, superhuman. Batman does things no normal human could possibly do. Even with training, Robin becomes a pretty good fighter, but, he's still not as good as Batman, not as smart as Batman and doesn't have the will power of Batman. So, no, training just isn't enough.

Now, if you insist that superhuman means that he has to be able to shoot lazer beams from his eyes, then sure, Bats isn's superhuman.

RC - I think you're conflating suffering a loss with losing. Bond does suffer a loss and loses friends from time to time in the movies. However, he never, ever, outright loses. His victory might be pyrric, but, it's still a mark in the win column. The bad guys are foiled, the world is saved and Bond moves on to his next adventure.

Which is, of course, entirely in keeping with the genre. It wouldn't be a Bond movie if he ends the movie with the bad guys blowing up London and he's dead.

 

[Raven Crowking]

James Bond does not end his movies with "And then the villains won, THE END."

Again, it is clear that you haven't seen On Her Majesty's Secret Service. That's pretty well exactly how that movie ends.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Her_Majesty's_Secret_Service_(film)

Bond and Tracy marry in Portugal, then drive away in Bond's Aston Martin. Bond pulls over to the roadside to remove flowers from the car. Tracy thanks Bond for marrying her and having a future away from the British Secret Service. As this happens, Blofeld (wearing a neck brace) and Bunt in a Mercedes-Benz 600 drive past the couple's car; Bunt sprays the car with bullets from a M16A1 automatic rifle. Bond dives behind the car and survives the drive-by attack, only to discover that Tracy has been killed by a shot to the forehead. A police officer pulls over to inspect the bullet-riddled car, prompting a tear-filled Bond to mutter that there's no need to hurry to call for help by saying, "We have all the time in the world," as he cradles Tracy's lifeless body. On that, the film comes to an end.​

Similarly, Bond's major mission in Casino Royale is to prevent Le Chiffre from acquiring funds for terrorism, and, if possible, to aquire him for British Intelligence. He fails in both. Over the course of the film, he discovers that he would rather be with Vesper than stay in the Secret Service. He fails. At the end of the film, he manages to capture White, which is a minor victory (and one which is undone at the start of the next movie).

A little learning is a dangerous thing;
drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
and drinking largely sobers us again.

And I also note that you are shifting the goalposts. Now, a character is superhuman unless he can be defeated by a nameless human? I.e., unless you are regularly beaten by the dregs of the fictional universe you occupy, you are clearly superhuman? Really? I've never been beaten by a nameless human.....I must be superhuman!

I begin to think that you are pulling my leg with this.

RC - I think you're conflating suffering a loss with losing. Bond does suffer a loss and loses friends from time to time in the movies. However, he never, ever, outright loses. His victory might be pyrric, but, it's still a mark in the win column. The bad guys are foiled, the world is saved and Bond moves on to his next adventure.

Which is, of course, entirely in keeping with the genre. It wouldn't be a Bond movie if he ends the movie with the bad guys blowing up London and he's dead.

Well, if by "never losing" you mean that he is always around so that the studio can make a buck with the next film, then, any serial character would be definition be superhuman. I think there were quite a few episodes of Leave it to Beaver, and I can't remember Ward Cleaver, June Cleaver, Wally, or the Beaver ever actually losing, or being taken out by the end of the episode with their pleasant little town in flames. Gee, Wally, I guess the Beaver really is superhuman!

And, hey, now that we are differentiating between "suffering important losses" and "losing", I guess I've never actually lost, either. After all, I'm still here, and Toronto isn't in flames. I must be superhuman!


RC

 

[WizarDru]

Again, it is clear that you haven't seen On Her Majesty's Secret Service. That's pretty well exactly how that movie ends.

Well, No. It ends with a tragedy for Bond, but Blofeld's scheme is defeated. And as part of the "Blofeld's Trilogy", it could be argued that this is the second act. But the villains lose in the film: they just make Bond pay for his victory.

 

[Mort]

Again, it is clear that you haven't seen On Her Majesty's Secret Service. That's pretty well exactly how that movie ends.

Not correct. Bond suffers a tragic personal loss, his mission, however, is a full success.

 

[Raven Crowking]

James Bond does not end his movies with "And then the villains won, THE END."

Well, No. It ends with a tragedy for Bond, but Blofeld's scheme is defeated. And as part of the "Blofeld's Trilogy", it could be argued that this is the second act. But the villains lose in the film: they just make Bond pay for his victory.

Not correct. Bond suffers a tragic personal loss, his mission, however, is a full success.

Note the first quote. It doesn't say, "In no film does Bond fail his primary mission". It says, "James Bond does not end his movies with "And then the villains won, THE END".

In OHMSS, Bond beats the villians repeatedly. He prevents Blofeld's main scheme. And then the villians won, THE END. That's the film.

Losing at X doesn't somehow negate winning at Y. Losing at X or Y doesn't negate winning at Z.

Now, let us cast our eyes on Casino Royale, which is an interesting counter-point to OHMSS. In CR, Bond does fail in both his primary mission, and in his primary desire. BUT the film ends with "And then James Bond won, THE END. And it is a very similar "Then X won" in both of the given films. Both X's have had something precious taken away from them, but were able to get a modicum of revenge.

But, IF one is to say that the ending of OHMSS doesn't count as a win for Blofeld, THEN it is unfair to say that the ending of CR is a win for Bond. Because these films parallel each other in this way, it is impossible to say (with a straight face, anyway) that both end with Bond winning.

Either way, there is a clear indication that Bond can, and does, lose.


RC

 

[Erekose]

. . . You don't have Arthur giving his sword and shealth to the better fighter Lancelot so the Camelot party can have an uber character . . .

I can't remember the specific details but there are seveal instances of Arthur lending Excalibur to other knights depending on the nature of their quest.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Anyone who is better than human is, by definition, superhuman.

Interesting.

What, as you see it, is the percentile break-point for when someone ceases to be human?

If John Smith is the best human in the world at math, by your definition John Smith stops being human, and Jane Johnson then becomes the best human in the world at math. At which point Jane Johnson, by your definition, stops being human, and Xie Zhoumeng then becomes the best human in the world at math. At which point Xie Zhoumeng, by your definition, stops being human ...

Batman does things no normal human could possibly do.

This is simply wrong. It's not a matter of opinion, it's not a matter of degrees. It is simply contrary to what is flatly stated in the Batman canon and by the creative teams behind the Batman mythology.

Even with training, Robin becomes a pretty good fighter, but, he's still not as good as Batman, not as smart as Batman and doesn't have the will power of Batman.

And yet he's now Batman. (And, BTW, he's a better acrobat than Batman. So, of course, now Dick Grayson is superhuman ... )

So, no, training just isn't enough.

Again, flatly wrong. You are operating on incorrect assumptions, which (of course) produce incorrect conclusions.

You have decided that "Batman isn't human because he can do amazing things and he can do amazing things so he can't possibly be human." It's circular and it's incorrect.

 

[Raven Crowking]

"You must spread XP around...yadda yadda"

Note also what is inherent in the "because nameless mooks can't take him out" meme. Those nameless mooks are, therefore, worse than the named characters who can occasionally win against a Bond or a Batman.

IOW, if Perry White is human, and Bruce Wayne is superhuman, nameless thug #2 must be subhuman.

So, Bruce Wayne is not superhuman because he is never bested by humans, but rather because he is not bested by subhumans.

Except, sometimes, these subhumans do get the advantage over our heroes. What to do? Why, define winning in such a way as to eliminate any temporary advantage!

Suddenly, of course, these subhumans also cannot win against Perry White, elevating Perry White from the human to the superhuman. In fact, anyone who is not gruesomely murdered is superhuman, because, hey, there's always a chance that whatever setback occurs might be temporary........indeed, these subhumans must also be superhuman........and so it goes.........


RC

 

[Diamond Cross]

And Batman does regularly defeat superhumans, such as Killer Croc, who has superhuman levels of strength.

And because he has Kryptonite, he can beat Superman. But that's the only way he'll beat Superman. He can slow him down but other than that there's just no way for him to beat Superman. Even with enough prep time.

And Blofield did kill James Bond's wife, which is why Bond is so afraid to get close to another woman. Even though they never really speak of it again, and only vaguely hint at it.

The thing about Casino Royale II (I call it two because there was another movie with same name) though is that while the bad guys did win, Bond did get his revenge, and it was actually a two parter with Quantum Of Solace being a loosely related part two.

And the bad guys won by getting the money. Which was their primary goal.