How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[pawsplay]

And Batman does regularly defeat superhumans, such as Killer Croc, who has superhuman levels of strength.

And because he has Kryptonite, he can beat Superman. But that's the only way he'll beat Superman. He can slow him down but other than that there's just no way for him to beat Superman. Even with enough prep time.

Actually, that's not true. Batman hs beaten Superman without Kryptonite before. In one case, knowing Superman's scruples, he rigged himself with a detonator and used a hostage (Superman did not understand Batman's psychology well enough to realize that the "innocent person" Batman specified as the victim was Batman himself).

Further, Superman (in most versions) is not completely invulnerable. While his battlesuit in the Dark Knight series isn't quite up to snuff, that was really just a ploy to get Superman into position, relying on Superman's tendency to resolve all tactical conflicts with his fists. In a proper ambush situation, Batman's mastery of technology is sufficient to take Superman out.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

*snip*

Again, you do not seem to understand the difference between "undergoing loss" and "the hero loses."

As for the rest of your post, it's almost as if there's a phrase for that...

In the end, this is all just one big (boring) tangent. The end result of my previous statement nonetheless exists: James Bond in the narrative scope is not a normal human.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

James Bond in the narrative scope is not a normal human.

Yes, and an apple is not a fruit.

(As long as I get to define "fruit.")

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Yes, and an apple is not a fruit.

(As long as I get to define "fruit.")

Non-statement

 

[Locien]

I think people are confusing the words "average", "normal". Batman and James Bond are not "average", but they are both still fundamentally human. They perform feats well beyond that of an "average" human but use abilities and skills that are fully possible to be used by(or fully attributable to) humans, albeit extraordinary humans(when does not make them superhuman, but better than an average human, who has by nature very limited abilities).
Also I don't think there is a solution in (at least western) literature for the wizard/fighter problem because the characters are usually simply handed different roles and are used differently. To be honest if you want to solve the wizard/fighter problem borrow from anything where a fighter has some sort of techniques beyond sword swinging. Wuxia, manga/anime, whatever you need for inspiration, you need to power-up or remake the fighter. That's why I liked book of nine swords for 3.5(which incidently made me want to play a class from that book), is that it game fighters something interesting to do other than something you need to sink 10+ feats into before using.

 

[pawsplay]

In the end, this is all just one big (boring) tangent. The end result of my previous statement nonetheless exists: James Bond in the narrative scope is not a normal human.

True, but neither is he a supernatural human.

 

[Hussar]

What confuses me here is why does superhuman mean that someone is no longer human?

Super means exceptional, great, wonderful, outright better. Superhuman means what it says on the box - better than human. Normal humans make superhuman efforts all the time, yet no one tries to claim they're no longer human.

Are people claiming that Spider-man isn't even human anymore? He's pretty obviously superhuman, I think we'd all agree there, but, not human at all? Really?

RC - go back to the beginning of this tangent and you'll see that the goalposts have long been on pretty shaky ground. The original point way back was that a 1st level fighter could be the same as some farmer just off the turnip truck. That was the claim being disputed.

I pointed out that our 1st level fighter, in any system, has abilities that no normal human can have - he can survive damage that will outright kill a D&D DEFINED normal human, he can have exceptional strength, which no normal human can have, he can gain xp (depending on system, some normal humans cannot gain xp). He actually has stats, which normal humans don't, (barring exceptional examples, which, by definition, are exceptional)(again, this is system dependent).

In all measurable ways, our 1st level fighter is outright betting in the D&D universe than a normal human (which is defined by the different systems as either being a 0 level human, or a 1st level commoner).

If you are better in all quantifiable ways than a defined normal human, how are you not superhuman?

There's goalpost shifting going on in this thread, but, I'm not really sure I'm the one that tied on the rollerskates. For example, while Bond might arguable lose in one movie (and a remake movie), there are about thirty other movies where he doesn't. So, while it's pedantically incorrect to say that Bond never loses, it's pretty damn close to the truth.

 

[I'm A Banana]

1st level fighters are still Fantasy Heroes, so they are still "above the rabble," so to speak. Batman isn't just a Gotham City beat cop with an alcoholism problem, he's friggin' Batman. James Bond isn't just some posh manwhore git with a gun, he's goddang James Bond.

This is pretty well driven into the ground.

Now all that's left is finding out how you want to emulate Batman's or James Bond's completely unrealistic and fantastic abilities in D&D, assuming you want your fighter to be like Batman or James Bond and have these powers only through the auspices of the Protestant Ethic or Plot Coupons or Being Magically Wealthy or somesuch. Of course, if you're happy with some existing solution, I suppose you're done.

Pre-4e mostly sez: "Make them roll for it, just give them bigger numbers than everyone else!" (problem: wizards do it automagically, no roll required, and the ladies are all OMG SO hot for REALZ)

4e sez: "Give them spells, just don't call them spells!" (problem: rules gets in front of narrative, and they trip over each other and fall down the stairs and die together screaming)

One idea I had was "Give them magic gear as a class feature." (problem: Well, guess we aren't playing a gritty low-magic type of game here...)

YMMV for how much any of those problems actually is a problem.

Anyone got any other brilliant schemes, or are we all done here but for the fanwank about how somehow James Bond isn't a fantasy hero and what godlike illegal aliens takin' all our superheroin' jobs a spoiled rich brat in black footie pyjamas can punch in the face?

I am hoping it is the first one!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Double post

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I pointed out that our 1st level fighter, in any system, has abilities that no normal human can have - he can survive damage that will outright kill a D&D DEFINED normal human, he can have exceptional strength, which no normal human can have, he can gain xp (depending on system, some normal humans cannot gain xp). He actually has stats, which normal humans don't, (barring exceptional examples, which, by definition, are exceptional)(again, this is system dependent).

In all measurable ways, our 1st level fighter is outright betting in the D&D universe than a normal human (which is defined by the different systems as either being a 0 level human, or a 1st level commoner).

And

1st level fighters are still Fantasy Heroes, so they are still "above the rabble," so to speak.

Except this is patently untrue unless you ignore the actual stuff printed in various sources.

1) The AD&D DMG lets NPC fighters have all the same advantages as PC fighters- whether an NPC actually GETS those strength adjustments is left to the DM.

2) There are THOUSANDS of F1s populating the militias of every city and regions listed in various sources, to be called up from the local townships to support the "real" armed forces. What about the hordes of REAL military, the bulk of whom of are F1s with serious gear like horses, chain & lances? Are you calling these tens of thousands of militiamen & regular army "Fantasy Heroes?"

3) Then what about F1s like "Daughter?" How in the hell is the young laborer with a level of fighter a "Fantasy Hero?" There is NOTHING in her description that says she's an adventurer of any kind.

F1 is PERFECT for describing NPCs with only a modicum of training...and TSR did exactly that.