How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[pawsplay]

So you agree that the only thing separating Bob the Turnip Farmer, with no special training, from a PC class, is GM fiat. We are making progress.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If she was a farmer on day N and a paladin on day N+1 without the intervention of a god, then you would have a point.

From the very beginning on this point, my position has been that F1 can represent a variety of things:

A "1st lvl Ftr" can describe a talented farmboy brawler, an avg. Joe fresh out of basic training, a 45 year old veteran whose skills have atrophied with age & injury or Hercules at age 5.

(And added things like militia members in a war-ravaged region, etc.)

WHY someone is a farmboy who becomes a F1 is immaterial to the point.

 

[Bluenose]

So you agree that the only thing separating Bob the Turnip Farmer, with no special training, from a PC class, is GM fiat. We are making progress.

Well, if we're dealing with Bobbus, son of Eddus the Roman Turnip Farmer, then assuming he's done the basic militia training expected of every Roman Citizen as a teenager, he can join the legions, get sent for six months training in Capua, and then be considered fit to be sent to a legion. Where he might be sent to one of the veteran cohorts for extra training, or put directly into a regular cohort if they needed to make up the numbers. Please note that Bobbus isn't trained to fight on horseback, which a D&D Fighter is, and he's familiar with a lot less by way of weaponry than a D&D Fighter. Of course, Bobbus has now committed himself to 16 years in the legions. So he's not likely to become a wandering adventurer any time soon. If Bobbus was training to be a Man-at-Arms, a Maryannu, a Sipahi, a Ghulam, a Yeni-Ceri, or a Samurai then he'd certainly expect longer in training.

From the very beginning on this point, my position has been that F1 can represent a variety of things:

(And added things like militia members in a war-ravaged region, etc.)

WHY someone is a farmboy who becomes a F1 is immaterial to the point.

How someone who starts as a farmboy becomes a F1 is, by contrast, rather signficant. A massively talented farmboy brawler who also happens to be competent with a wide variety of weapons and armour and who knows how to fight on horseback without it being a disadvantage, still has to be able to afford their equipment.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

How someone who starts as a farmboy becomes a F1 is, by contrast, rather signficant. A massively talented farmboy brawler who also happens to be competent with a wide variety of weapons and armour and who knows how to fight on horseback without it being a disadvantage, still has to be able to afford their equipment.

Having played PCs who fought with weapons based on their commoner's background- picks, hammers & mauls for a mason turned Paladin, for instance- and having played peniless warriors who had to depend on the wealth of their partymates to buy anything beyond studded leather and a club, or others who inherited their gear from relatives (perhaps even the one who trained them), or those who had their gear by virtue of being in the militia or their employer (and thus, did not own it) and others besides, I'd say there are a number of ways you can figure out how the farmboy got his gear.

Ones I've thought of but haven't tried yet:

1) scavenged from a battlefield
2) stolen
3) community chipped in
4) prosperous family farm, and farmboy wanted his birthright early (a la the Prodigal Son, but spent on gear)
5) found in a hidden cache (a la Tom Cruise in Legend)
6) bartered for in exchange
7) satisfaction of a debt
8) indentured servitude

 

[Sepulchrave II]

1) scavenged from a battlefield
2) stolen
3) community chipped in
4) prosperous family farm, and farmboy wanted his birthright early (a la the Prodigal Son, but spent on gear)
5) found in a hidden cache (a la Tom Cruise in Legend)
6) bartered for in exchange
7) satisfaction of a debt
8) indentured servitude

I think these are all good ideas; plot hooks and character motivation cascade off of these. But they actually seem to feed the notion of heroic-ness to me, insofar as they are evocative of archetypal tales or stories: each would be a great kick-off for an heroic career. They are all exceptional circumstances.

To me, it is precisely the confluence of exceptional circumstances that makes a character heroic.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Peter Parker is a teenage geek on the day before he gets bitten by a radioactive spider. The day after, he's Spider-man.

How is Spider-man superhuman but Jeanne D'Arc not?

Radioactive spider DNA.

 

[Raven Crowking]

That's a bit of a strawman though. Bob the turnip farmer IS NOT A 1st level fighter. That's right there, in black and white, in the rules. We're not making this up. This isn't some way out there reinterpretation of the rules. It's RIGHT FREAKING THERE. Bob the Turnip Farmer is a 0 level normal human or a 1st level commoner.

Not in any system, not in any edition, does it specify what Bob the Turnip Farmer is.

All it ever does is generalize what the average turnip farmer is.

Which brings it back around to why this conversation can't go forward.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Unless you want to claim that the greatest bowman ever (Robin Hood of legend (not history)) is just a normal human.

Actually, I'm glad you brought this up as an example. I don't know how much mythology and folklore you go in for, so I don't know how much you actually know about the "Robin Hood of legend", or even which "Robin Hood of legend" you mean!

Let's use this page as a bit of a reference: Robin Hood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, as with the Bruce Wayne or turnip farmer examples, we are examining whether or not Robin Hood could be considered a normal human at the start of his career.

The early ballads are also quite clear on Robin Hood's social status: he is a yeoman. While the precise meaning of this term changed over time, including free retainers of an aristocrat and small landholders, it always referred to commoners. The essence of it in the present context was "neither a knight nor a peasant or 'husbonde' but something in between."[16] We know that artisans (such as millers) were among those regarded as "yeomen" in the 14th century.[17]​

Nothing supernatural there. Note that, as a yeoman, Robin is some form of commoner. Possibly a farm owner. Possibly a turnip farm owner.

The character of Robin in these first texts is rougher edged than in his later incarnations. In "Robin Hood and the Monk", for example, he is shown as quick tempered and violent, assaulting Little John for defeating him in an archery contest; in the same ballad Much the Miller's Son casually kills a "little page" in the course of rescuing Robin Hood from prison.[6] No extant ballad actually shows Robin Hood "giving to the poor", although in a "A Gest of Robyn Hode" Robin does make a large loan to an unfortunate knight which he does not in the end require to be repaid;[68] and later in the same ballad Robin Hood states his intention of giving money to the next traveller to come down the road if he happens to be poor.​

Again, nothing supernatural there. He is even defeated in an archery contest.

In the 18th century, the stories become even more conservative, and develop a slightly more farcical vein. From this period there are a number of ballads in which Robin is severely "drubbed" by a succession of professionals including a tanner, a tinker and a ranger.[84] In fact, the only character who does not get the better of Hood is the luckless Sheriff. Yet even in these ballads Robin is more than a mere simpleton: on the contrary, he often acts with great shrewdness.​

Clearly superhuman.

But, ah, you might be thinking of that little incident of splitting an arrow in an archery contest. Specifically because the good folks at Myth Busters couldn't reproduce it (although at least one filmed appearance of the trick, as described on the program, was attributed to the work of a very talented human archer).

Well, sorry, but Myth Busters didn't prove it couldn't be done; they only proved that they couldn't do it. And, while it is an interesting data point (and a fun program), it is not conclusive.

But, even if it were, we are again making the mistake of looking at a character at the height of his powers, and imagining that this somehow indicates where he was when he started out. As though Bruce Wayne was the frikkin Batman on the night his parents were murdered. As though Peter Parker were somehow superhuman before the radioactive spider bite.

As though the legendary Robin Hood might not have once been a turnip farmer.

Which brings it back around to why this conversation can't go forward.

And around and around we go.



RC

 

[Hussar]

Radioactive spider DNA.

And being tapped by a GOD is so different? Remember, we're positing that Jeanne is a paladin, not a fighter - she now has supernatural powers - curing disease, healing, detecting evil, etc.

Let's swim back upthread a second:

Bob d'Turnippe
Human Fighter 1
Str 15, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (longspear), Combat Reflexes
Skills: Climb 4 (+5), Handle Animal 4 (+3), Profession (farming) 4 (+4), Ride 4 (+5).

1. Why is Bob an elite? That's not a normal human right there according to the rules.

2. Where exactly did Bob learn to use nearly every weapon out there with equal facility?

3. Where exactly did Bob learn to wear all kinds of armor?

4. What part of Bob's life picking turnips did he pick up the ability to specialize in weapons, something NO ONE ELSE CAN EVER DO?

So, again, how is Bob a normal human? He's quantitatively better than a normal human by virtue of having an elite array, he has combat skills that no common man can ever learn no matter how much they train and I notice you leave out the fact that he has FIVE AND A HALF TIMES more hit points than an average joe.

To me RC? This is why the conversation can't go forward. The definition of "Average Joe" has gone from zero level commoner to a freaking ELITE Level 1 Fighter that even the DMG says is an average encounter for a SECOND LEVEL PARTY. This guy is a hard encounter for a 1st level party.

Mr Average Joe? He's a 1/2 CR. He's an easy fight for an average party.

 

[Ranes]

1. Why is Bob an elite? That's not a normal human right there according to the rules.

Actually, the opposite is true, right there, according to the rules.

The elite array is most appropriate for monsters who add levels in a player character class.