D&D 4E How did 4e take simulation away from D&D?

I personally don't believe D&D is like a math problem. There isn't a single way that is guaranteed to cause the most fun at the table for any given group- It's pretty variable.

So anytime I see someone arguing how doing X or Y is bad DMing, it bugs me.

In my opinion, a good DM reads about and absorbs all different playing styles, ideas, tips, and techniques then finds what works best for his or her own group.

(And I think a great DM can even utilize techniques he might not always agree with if it's what makes the most fun for the group as a whole.)


Part of why I used to love running and playing in Con games so much... Exposure to so many different playing styles is great I think... You never know when experiencing something you thought was a waste of time just a few minutes might change your POV 360 degrees!

More or less what I have been trying to say. There are very few things that are universally bad DMing in all circumstances. Most of them (well many at least) are fairly obvious and involve simple basic social dynamics that apply in everyday life. There are MANY other things that could be useful in one situation and not useful in another. As you say, I tend to be of the mind that most hard and fast rules are made to be broken. I think the earlier post by DEFCON1 about "Yes, but..." kind of illustrates that too, it is a pretty good rule to know and use and is quite powerful when used creatively but saying "no" can certainly also be a good way to go. It all depends on the people at the table and the situation.

I get the impression when having a discussion with KD that any statement is immediately taken to an extreme that is usually not intended. "Nudging can be OK" is FAR from "Railroad the heck out of your players, DM knows best." They aren't really even similar at all.

There is also an ART to giving guidance to players. Saying "That building is heavily guarded" is pretty heavy-handed. It will usually work, but a much more creative approach is to simply let the players find out that indeed the building is heavily guarded all on their own. It isn't like it won't be apparent when they get there. It may be easy enough to introduce that information without needing them to go look for themselves. There's also a question of exactly what the player's mood, goals, etc is. If one player is intent on dragging everyone to the building and the rest aren't really all that enthused about it then pointing out that the building is heavily guarded might really be exactly what the doctor ordered. Sure, you're perhaps undermining one player a little bit in favor of the others, but as long as you have a good sense of player satisfaction and you're meeting all of their various needs to a reasonable degree you can do that. Next time you get a chance you can give that player exactly what they want.

It isn't like I don't get what KD is saying either. There is just more to it than that. At least in my games I often do act as a sort of guide. The people I play with generally appreciate that, so it works. There are other players I've had in other games where I am more likely to use other techniques because I know from experience that they just have a different style of play and don't need or want that specifically.
 

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If the swamp is 1 week away and there are tons of dangers on the road there, dangers you were planning on including in a future session that you haven't planned yet, then maybe it IS better for the players to go to the hills instead. It wouldn't be a bad idea to nudge them in that direction.

Bad idea? Maybe, maybe not. But is it necessary?

One of the best aspects of 4E that I've found as DM though is that I can easily come up with several different adventure ideas and have the first few encounters (combat or otherwise) / skill challenges for each skeleton-ed out enough so that I can be flexible enough to head in one of several different direction without a hiccup occurring.

The search features of Monster Builder / Compendium have been a big help in that area. I had an adventuring site with 4 different entrances not too long ago where I had the main path in great detail, and 3 other paths with just a one sentence note on the basics of which monsters were located in each "room" and why they were there. I didn't even bother with treasures since in many cases, I could re-use the treasures that I had already placed in the main path.

Maybe it's just my perception of how you are discussing it being a problem for the DM not being prepared for more than one adventure in this discussion, but I prefer to always have a few options for the players beyond the main 1 or 2 that I was planning. Always give the players multiple choices.

And, it takes very little effort to re-skin a bandit encounter into a swamp frog encounter on the fly (or even grab a few more appropriate type monsters out of one of the books on the fly). And it's fairly simple to create a reasonable skill challenge on the fly. I think it's a lot easier to retool and/or create new encounters on the fly with 4E than earlier versions, so I also think that it's safer for the DM to allow his players to make their own decisions without totally rocking the boat.

But if you are a casual DM, the only adventure you have planned is in the hills, and you aren't too good at improv, then you don't want the players to go to the swamp.

You now seem to be defending the concept of "nudging" by claiming that not every casual DM is prepared as opposed to your earlier contention that expert DMs are making a mistake when they do not nudge (your earlier statement "I think it's a novice mistake that some expert DMs make, refusing to speak directly to the players because they see it as meta-game.").

I agree that casual DMs might be a bit hesitant in doing improve, but expert DMs shouldn't have that limitation.

Expert DMs should be able to go wherever their players take them. Expert DMs should lay the table out with "a wide variety of foods" and let their players pick and chose what they want to try instead of directing them to "one or a single few best dishes" (metaphorically speaking).

And, casual DMs shouldn't be afraid to try out improve either. It's a way in which to improve DMing skills and help make the game fun when the unexpected occurs. Sometimes, one should try to jump into the deep end once in a while.
 

I get the impression when having a discussion with KD that any statement is immediately taken to an extreme that is usually not intended. "Nudging can be OK" is FAR from "Railroad the heck out of your players, DM knows best." They aren't really even similar at all.

I opine that they are a lot more similar than some DMs are willing to admit. In both cases, the DM is directly attempting to influence the direction of the action.

What is that except railroading, even if done in a mild way that the DM is sure will work?

Or does railroading in your mind have definition limitations that forcing by influencing doesn't?

There is also an ART to giving guidance to players. Saying "That building is heavily guarded" is pretty heavy-handed. It will usually work, but a much more creative approach is to simply let the players find out that indeed the building is heavily guarded all on their own. It isn't like it won't be apparent when they get there. It may be easy enough to introduce that information without needing them to go look for themselves.

Ok, I don't understand you.

The creative approach is "to simply let the players find out that indeed the building is heavily guarded all on their own".

The easy approach is to "introduce that information without needing them to go look for themselves".

So, which are you suggesting? The creative approach or the easy approach? They seem to be different approaches, but you aren't saying which is preferable.

And how are either of these two approaches NOT attempts to railroad the players into not trying to go into the building?
 

Somewhat late to the party, but ...

Incidentally, in 3.5e is that you need to be running for 20 feet before your jump (or the DC doubles), and you can't change direction when running.

Uh, uh, uh!

Careful there with sloppy rules language.

3.5 SRD said:
All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump. If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled.

Running start <> "take the Run action"

Moreover, the movement in a straight line does not even have to be in the direction you are jumping, per the RAW. You could move 20' north, then jump directly south, and fulfill the requirements of the rules.

Ergo, this is not an area wherein you can argue that 3.5 was "realistic" while 4E is not.
 

You now seem to be defending the concept of "nudging" by claiming that not every casual DM is prepared as opposed to your earlier contention that expert DMs are making a mistake when they do not nudge (your earlier statement "I think it's a novice mistake that some expert DMs make, refusing to speak directly to the players because they see it as meta-game.").
To be clear, I said that it's a mistake to refuse nudging, not that you should always nudge. I believe that its a mistake to think you should never nudge, but that doesn't mean I think you should always nudge.

But yeah, saying 'casual' was wrong on my part. I think that even experienced DMs that are good at improv should nudge. Say you have one adventure planned and want the PCs to go on that adventure. I would nudge the players in the direction of the adventure if they got too far off track. I think that putting something interesting in the swamp that points them towards the hills is just as nudgy and meta-gamey as directly telling them that 'no one ever mentioned the orcs coming from the swamp, have you tried asking around to see where the orcs came from?'

And generally my nudging is trying to prod them in the direction they want to go, not trying to prod them in a direction they don't want to go. If they didn't want to go on the adventure I wouldn't push it much. If they did want to go on the adventure but they got off to a bad start, then I would nudge.
 

It's hard to get a feel for what something is like without being there. A 20 foot drop off looks and feels a lot different when you are really there. Your character does not get that human 'twinge' that you would get standing at the top of a cliff. As a player you might not even know what '20 feet' means when it is abstracted as a number. It's about the third floor of an apartment building.
This reminds me of the following passage from the rules for Maelstrom Storytelling:

se "scene ideas" to convey the scene, instead of literalisms. ... focus on the intent behind the scene and not on how big or how far things might be. If the difficulty of the task at hand (such as jumping across a chasm in a cave) is explained in terms of difficulty, it doesn't matter how far across the actual chasm spans. In a movie, for instance, the camera zooms or pans to emphasize the danger or emotional reaction to the scene, and in so doing it manipulates the real distance of a chasm to suit the mood or "feel" of the moment. It is then no longer about how far across the character has to jump, but how hard the feat is for the character. ... If the players enjoy the challenge of figuring out how high and far someone can jump, they should be allowed the pleasure of doing so - as long as it doesn't interfere with the narrative flow and enjoyment of the game. ... Players who want to climb onto your coffee table and jump across your living room to prove that their character could jump over the chasm have probably missed the whole point of the story.


Sometimes a simulationist focus can actually be at odds with immersion, or player engagement with the fiction. Of course, 4e has a slightly Janus-faced approach to this - skill challenges are based around the Maelstrom-style approach, while tactical combat is based around a "distances and measurements" approach. When it comes to the 4e action resolution rules, my biggest complaint is about the difficulty of integrating these two approaches, and the lack of guidance from the designers on how to do this (DMG2 has a little bit to say, but really not very much).

I think it's a novice mistake that some expert DMs make, refusing to speak directly to the players because they see it as meta-game. In reality you need to speak to them directly sometimes because of the three reasons above.
I do this all the time, not only helping out with narration (as mentioned above) but also with tactics, and generally just for fun. I'll often also "nudge" players in the direction of thematic engagement or conflict.

To give an exmaple of this: The wizard PC in my game had in his background at the start of the campaign that he was a lapsed disciple of the Raven Queen, became unlapsed during the course of play (cleric multi-class) but now has relapsed in favour of a complex mix of Erathis, Ioun and Vecna (invoker multi-class). The party also has a paladin of the Raven Queen who is very hardcore in his approach, and a ranger-cleric of the Raven Queen who is more interested in the Fate aspect than the Death aspect. So when the players are debating some possible course of action I'll often play the religious "conscience" of one or the other of these PCs (mostly either the wizard or the paladin, because their players tend to engage more than the player of the ranger-cleric), needling them or reminding them of their religious commitments or otherwise sewing minor elements of conflict and disunity! - which then help drive the game forward.

This is a technique that I first experienced as a player in a Cthulhu Dreamlands freeform at a convention back in 1992. I thought it was great then - it really lifted play to a whole new level, by keeping the stakes of the fiction firmly and place and stopping us (as players) becoming complacent about them. I've used it on and off since, but find myself doing so now more and more frequently (probably as I've become more confident about this aspect of my GMing).
 

I'll give an example in a 3E game I was a player in once.

<snip>

To me, I was roleplaying my PC based on the scenario and his personality/background. To the DM, I was being disruptive in his game. But instead of "Just saying No" and stopping the game and explaining ramifications, the DM "Just said Yes" and allowed my PC to commit suicide.
To me, this isn't an example of when a GM should have said no. It's an example of crappy railroading GMing.

As a general rule 99% of the time, let the players make their own decisions and don't try to influence it.

<snip>

And this is an especially bad idea in combat except for the most obvious of combat tactics.

<snip>

But the DM should not influence the decisions of the players for a DM metagame reason and not by just stopping the story and blurting out a nudge.
You seem to me to be assuming, here, a goal or purpose of playing an RPG that not everyone may share.

If the reason your players are playing the game is in order to prove that, by nothing other than their own wits and the PCs they've build they can overcome the challenges the GM throws at them, the advice you give here is probably sound. (I'm thinking of a game along the lines of that described by Gygax towards the end of the AD&D PHB).

If the reason your players a playing the game is in order to explore and express rich thematic material, and to test their commitments to competing values and ideals, then the advice you give here is, in my view, less sound. Because playing in this second way, the GM kibbitzing can be one way of keeping those thematic issues at the forefront of the players' minds, and of not letting them get off the hook lightly. (As I described in my previous post.)
 

If the reason your players are playing the game is in order to prove that, by nothing other than their own wits and the PCs they've build they can overcome the challenges the GM throws at them, the advice you give here is probably sound. (I'm thinking of a game along the lines of that described by Gygax towards the end of the AD&D PHB).

If the reason your players a playing the game is in order to explore and express rich thematic material, and to test their commitments to competing values and ideals, then the advice you give here is, in my view, less sound. Because playing in this second way, the GM kibbitzing can be one way of keeping those thematic issues at the forefront of the players' minds, and of not letting them get off the hook lightly. (As I described in my previous post.)

What if you have different personalities at the table, some in the first camp, some in the second camp, some in a third unmentioned camp, and some split?
 

What is that except railroading, even if done in a mild way that the DM is sure will work?

Or does railroading in your mind have definition limitations that forcing by influencing doesn't?
I'm up to my armpits in a railroading debate over on Industry, and so am hesitant to open up that can of worms here.

But I'll have a go at it.

I know of at least three ways to initiate the action in a fantasy RPG. (I'm sure there are others.)

One is that the players turn up to the first session, PCs generated, and they start wherever the GM tells them they are. And from then on, the players make all the decisions about where they go and what they do. The GM may influence this in various ways: first, by having the power to decide what is where in the gameworld; second, by getting to decide when to suspend or apply the action resolution rules (eg if the GM decides to handwave some overland travel then the players won't get the chance to decide to have their PCs explore the interesting whatever that they might have discovered en route had the normal action resolution rules been used).

Roughly speaking, this first approach is the sandbox.

The second is that the players turn up to the first session, PCs generated, and the GM says "We're playing adventure X tonight". The very moderately stealth version of this goes ingame rather than metagame - the GM describes some event happening ingame which is the "plot hook", and the players do their duty and pick up on it.

This second approach is what I think is pretty typical for a published module or adventure path. I think it is prone to railroading - that depends in part on what options are open to the players in the course of the adventure, but often it seems to me that those options are not all that much. The players get to contribute a bit of colour and characterisation of their PCs, and perhaps the odd sidequest, but the bulk of the significant events that unfold in the campaign, the question of who enemies and allies are, and so on, are determined by the GM's selection of modules.

A more sophisticated version of this approach is what The Alexandrian calls node-based design - the idea that instead of the adventure involving a strictly linear series of events, the adventure is a bundle of nodes each containing leads to other nodes in the adventure, and the adventure is completed when all the nodes have been explored. The Alexandrian says this:

Of course, the argument can be made that there’s no “meaningful choice” here because there are three nodes in the scenario and the PCs are going to visit all three nodes no matter what they do. In the big picture, the exact order in which they visit those nodes isn’t meaningful.

Or is it?

... [snipping complexities like the possibility of a timeline that makes the sequence in which the nodes are explored more significant for the overall storyline]

in my opinion, the fact that the players are being offered the driver’s seat is meaningful in its own right. Even if the choice doesn’t have any lasting impact on the final conclusion of “good guys win, bad guys lose”, the fact that the players were the ones who decided how the good guys were going to win is important.​

The extent to which this is less railroady will turn quite a bit on how meaningful that "how" turns out to be. Merely killing the kobolds before the goblins - the "how" of mere sequence - doesn't seem that meaningful to me. If the players, by choosing the "how", can actually influence what is at stake - eg tackling the kobolds first will allow rescuing the prisoners, but leaves the village at the mercy of the goblins - then we are getting beyond colour and characterisation to more meaningful choices.

(One way of thinking of node-based design might be as a focused sandbox, with links between the nodes that the GM has predicted will be salient for the players.)

The third approach that I'm familiar with is one in which the players signal to the GM what sort of situations they want to have their PCs involved in - whether via backstory, or via actual play, or a combination of both - and the GM then frames scenes that respond to those signals, relying on the players' engagement to drive the game forward. This differs from the sandbox approach, because the players are not exploring the GM's world. Rather, the GM is creating a world - perhaps on the fly - that permits the players to engage in the way that they want to. It also differs from the "plot hook" approach, because it is the players who are presenting the GM with hooks, and the GM who is responding to that in framing the situations.

For this third approach to work, it is important that the players be able to trust the GM to frame situations that are worth anyone's time.

If the GM pushes scene framing too hard, relative to what the players want, then this may lead to railroading. Conversely, if the GM does succeed in framing scenes that are worth anyone's time, this approach avoids the problem that some people see in sandboxes of "having to search for the fun".

This third approach is obviously at odds with exploration-focused sandboxing. It suits either step-on-up gamism (the GM frames scenes that let the players do their thing!) or thematically-focused narrativism (the GM frames scenes that let the players address the thematic concerns that are interesting to them). It can also be used for non-sandbox exploration play (I say this from experience).

Depending on what sort of play is going on at a given table, and what the expectations of the players are, GM nudging could be the most outrageous railroading, or a key part of making the game work in the way everyone wants. I don't think nudging can be classified one way or the other abstracted from this sort of context.

What if you have different personalities at the table, some in the first camp, some in the second camp, some in a third unmentioned camp, and some split?
Then there might be trouble.

My group has two players who are mostly interested in the thematic/story stuff, two who are interested in that stuff and in the mechanics in about equal measure (one of these is also a good mechanical optimiser), and one is generally less engaged overall (although I wouldn't say he's a "watcher" in the DMG's sense).

Because (in my view) 4e is a game in which attention to the mechanics is not at odds with thematic-focused play, but part of the mechanism for achieving it, I find that running a theme-focused game, with this group at least, doesn't cause problems. Occasionally the optimiser can get caught up in the minutiae of mechanical advantage to an extent that I find a bit annoying, but we negotiate around that when it happens. (The dynamics of my table are heavily influenced by the fact that everyone there has known everyone else there for something like 15+ years, except one player who's known only 3 of the other 5 of us for that long.)

Ron Edward's view is that in a situation of genuine conflict in styles, grief and bad roleplaying experiences will result. In my experience, back when I used to GM more varied groups with a wider range of expectations, as long as the GM and the dominant personalities among the players can get on the same page, the more passive players will follow along!

But I don't think there's any simple answer like "If the group is mixed, the the GM should be more restrained". Because if some members of the group are looking for the GM to actively push them in the game, they'll have a bad time just as much as the sandoxers in the group will have a bad time if the GM stats prodding and poking.
 
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The DM should be impartial and keep his mouth shut UNLESS the major party decision will definitively lead to a TPK or something, and even then, he should be very careful how he "nudges" (shy of the situation where it is obvious that the DM did not hand out enough information and needs to fix that). Nudging should be things like reminders at best.
I disagree.

Have you watched the youtube vids of Chris Perkins DMing for the Robo Chicken guys?

He's constantly trying to 'nudge' them into actions that will have fun consequences. And he's using just the right mix of suggestions that will make life more difficult for the characters and genuinely good advice.

'Nudging' will definitely improve your game - if you're doing it right.
 

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