15 Minute Adventuring Day

[KarinsDad]

For instance, while Improved defenses is nice, I think the Great (and especially Superior) Fort/Reflex/Will feats are even better. Let's face it, my dwarf who has nothing but 1/2 bonus to his Reflex, is pretty much always gonna get hit by an attack targetting reflex (even with a +1). But give him another +2 to his Fort (and combine that with a resist to ongoing damage to boot) and suddenly he's saving a lot more damage on him.

Superior Defenses are often better because of the rider defensive effects which happen a lot more often. Unfortunately, they have a very high ability score buy in cost, so they are difficult to purchase. Most PCs cannot afford them and those that can tend to already have those particular NADs high.


But, the +2 Fort portion of Great Fortitude does little. Assuming that only one attack in six goes against Fort (3 in 6 vs. AC, 1 in 6 Fort, 1 in 6 Reflex, 1 in 6 Will), it doesn't matter what a given defense is.

Adding +1 to all 3 NADs is better than adding +2 to 1 NAD because out of every 120 attack rolls at Heroic, Great Defense will stop 2 hits whereas Improved Defenses will stop 3 hits. Stopping 2 hits out of 120 attack rolls is equivalent to stopping 2 successful NPC hits out of about every 3 levels (assuming a given PC gets attacked 5 times per encounter and there are about 8 encounters per level, Defenders might get attacked more, Controllers a lot less). Improved Defenses helps once per level on average.

Improved Defenses gets even better at Paragon by helping 2 times per level (stopping 6 more hits out of 120 vs. 3 more hits out of 120 of Great X) and Epic 3 times per level (stopping 9 more hits vs. stopping 4 more hits).

Granted, this assumes a fairly equal distribution of NAD attacks of different types and that each has a similar level of devastating effects if it hits, but as a general rule of thumb, that can probably be assumed.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The thing is:

a) guidelines are rewritten in the essentials DM kit: (or are they the same we had before?)
moderately difficult, challenging but not overwhelming is level or level +1

suggested encounters are:

6 encounters of level or level +1,
1 encounter level -1,
and one encounter level +3

when previously we heard of groubs that were not threatened at all by equal level encounters, that ended in a grind.
In the forum we read many stories of level +3 beeing easy cakewalks, as damage was too low.

b) I had a long answer to you, KarinsDad, but i don´t want to be drawn in a discussion of probability and average damage again. Your math is ok. I just want to remind, that with defender marks, and monsters of lower level, chances for hit series are greatly reduced, which can potentially drop a character. The same is true about monsters, but players usually have other tricks, dropping a monster after bad luck (miss by one) occurs.

Edit:
since last session we tried a houserule:

Based on the idea to make the heal skill more useful and to make the game a little bit more simulationist we allow to make a heal check against a medium DC/Hard DC to replenish a 1 or 2 surges lost in a fight.

For or a short while we allowed a heal check to increase numbers healed at a rest by 2 points, but that was stepping to heavily on the bard or the druids ability. We are still edgging out the rough parts, but this rule will definitively increase the numbers of encounters the party can face at a given day.

(As a counterbalance, a rough night does not give back all surges)

 

[Riastlin]

Snip.

Thing is though, Improved Defenses is still going to result in a lot of characters getting hit almost all the time on certain defenses, and while it might by the odds be roughly even or slightly better (not knowing what riders are attached) it still seems better to focus on the Great or Superior feats.

I realize the Superior feats have a somewhat high prereq, but I think its going to be pretty rare that you encounter a character that doesn't qualify for any of them (15 isn't that hard to come by after all), though I agree it would be equally rare to find a character that qualifies for all of them. My guess is that most characters could pretty easily qualify for two of them (though it might require a bit of planning). You add in the rider effects and I think you have definitely made a better case for the Superior feats. Keep in mind too, that certain characters won't even be all that bothered by certain riders from monster attacks. An egaged defender can often afford to be marked, or slowed, etc. A ranged attacker that doesn't have anyone in his grill won't mind being immobilized. The dwarf can handle the ongoing poison, etc.

The riders are what make the seemingly less optimal choice of the Superior feat better because you get that bonus which is always on. Its the same reason why the fullblade is technically a superior choice to the executioner's axe. The axe does slightly more damage per round, but you'll get the riders from your powers more often with the fullblade.

As I said though, I think the important thing to remember is that choosing defense now does make sense with the new monster damage. Maybe its improved defenses, maybe its toughness, etc. Before, I think it was a lot less likely that a player would choice defense over offense because frankly, the monsters just were not that scary. Now even the strikers have to be careful. Do I take Weapon Focus before Improved Defenses? I dunno, I think its at least a toss up now -- which in my opinion is a good thing.

 

[Mengu]

a) guidelines are rewritten in the essentials DM kit: (or are they the same we had before?)
moderately difficult, challenging but not overwhelming is level or level +1

suggested encounters are:

6 encounters of level or level +1,
1 encounter level -1,
and one encounter level +3

So they actually suggest an 8 encounter day? I don't think any of my groups can pull that off (if those are all combat encounters). I don't have the essentials DM Kit, I've not seen an update to the guidelines in the original DMG pg 56-57. And DMG didn't have any guidelines as to how many combat encounters should be planned in an adventuring day.

 

[Riastlin]

So they actually suggest an 8 encounter day? I don't think any of my groups can pull that off (if those are all combat encounters). I don't have the essentials DM Kit, I've not seen an update to the guidelines in the original DMG pg 56-57. And DMG didn't have any guidelines as to how many combat encounters should be planned in an adventuring day.

I believe that is still per level. The point being, that in a given level, only 1 encounter should be more than level +1 in difficulty. (i.e. equal level encounters should be sufficiently challenging to keep the group entertained).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I believe that is still per level. The point being, that in a given level, only 1 encounter should be more than level +1 in difficulty. (i.e. equal level encounters should be sufficiently challenging to keep the group entertained).

This

i hope the intention is not having level 30 chars after a rough month.

 

[Aenghus]

Combat encounters are more difficult with MM3 standards, and referees may have to tweak encounters up or down to suit their groups. The players in my group have a new found respect for monsters since the upgrade.

It's also worth mentioning that stuff other than combat encounters happens in games. Skill challenges can take considerable amounts of in-game time (as opposed to real time) to work through, and travel, general exploration, shopping etc can take up significant amounts of an in-game day (or days, weeks or longer in the case of travel).

 

[jbear]

My last post was devoured by the internet. A sign from the inter-verse the post was too long? Probably! I'll be brief.

I've been devouring party's HSurges since I have begun using updated damage values.
I haven't seen a concrete reduction in the number of encounters per day yet. Off the top of my head:

4th to last Day: 6 encounters; party fled from 2, 1 skill challenge
3rd to last Day: 2 encounters; both encounters were Hard-Very Hard
2nd to last Day: 8 encounters; party fled from 1, 2 skill challenges, 1 encounter interrupted Extended Rest
Last Day: 4 encounters; 1 Trap, 1 Hard, 1 Very Hard, 1 "Encounter Area"

Some elements perhaps relevant to why my Party hasn't been affected consistently:

-My PCs are more than willing to flee
-I use skill challenges quite often; although my challenges are usually quite harmful if failed (even to a minor degree)
-I have rewarded the PCs with bonus HSurges at critical points (where I also consider it makes sense story-wise)
-During my last session I combined 3 encounters into an "Encounter Area" and ran it as a Skill Challenge. This actually worked remarkably well and left my players with the sensation they had done lots and achieved even more in a relatively short period of time while still being properly challenged. This is the kind of sensation I want them to have.

About now is the time where any more explanation is bound to call the wrath of the gods of the inter-verse down upon me, and so as not to have my post devoured again, I'll leave it here.

p.s more than happy to expand on rewarding HSurges or Encounter Areas combining combat encounters and skill challenges on a dungeon map. I think these can be factors that help expand the 'Adventurer's Working Day', but it may be slightly off topic.

 

[Riastlin]

i hope the intention is not having level 30 chars after a rough month.

Heh, could make for a good story though. "You decide to hang up your pitchfork and do something important. The world more or less blows up and within a month, you've drifted off into the stars to enjoy your immortality." Or, maybe immortality isn't something to strive for after all.

 

[babinro]

3 or 4 encounters in heroic tier seems typical these days.

My Brutal Scoundrel Rogue, however, easily eats up 3 surges per encounter even with defensive based feats. He is lucky to make it into the 3rd encounter with surges left within the new damage rules.

I've adjusted to this by taking both toughness and durable feats in place of things like expertise and backstabber. In addition, my rogue will frequently just sit in the back of the action just throwing daggers in encounter 3 or 4 until which time he can attack without getting surrounded.

I have no actual complaint here mind you...take away my Rogue and the rest of my party could probably average 5-6 combats before reaching any real danger zone.