Casters Suck? Please explain.

[Mentat55]

At 2nd level, with a +1 implement, Expertise, a 20 in the relevant ability score, and Superior Implement Proficiency for the accurate version of the implement, the best an implement user can hope for is a +9. In all likelihood, the sorcerer and monk are incorrectly adding the proficiency bonus of the dagger and unarmed strike, respectively, to their implement attacks.

 

[Miio]

Actually, you can throw all your resources into the pot and get a +9 hit bonus as a monk (+5 dex, +1 level, +1 implement, +1 Accurate implement, +1 Staff Expertise).

But then, you can do the same thing as a cleric, too -- +5 wis, +1 level, +1 symbol, Proficiency (Accurate Holy Symbol -- or Undeniable if you're mostly attacking Will and your prayers usually do damage), Versitile Expertise = +9. If you're restricted to PH1 prayers, you have some incentive to bump up your hit chance as a laser cleric--as your at wills both target reflex, so you'll have problems hitting lurkers and others with a high reflex (but should be able to easily hit brutes). If not, you can mix it up by grabbing Gaze of Defiance instead of Lance of Faith -- so you can use Gaze against foes who have weaker wills, and Sacred Flame against slower, more strong willed foes. Or mix a ranged attack (probably Sacred Flame, as SF is awesome) with a weapon attack that's based on Wisdom; there are a lot to choose from now. There's even the super-accurate Storm Hammer, which gives up riders for being a weapon vs Fort attack.

You shouldn't have any problems at all hitting as a wizard, frankly. Wizards usually target 2-3 foes with each attack and have relatively few reasons to not have an Int of 20, so even though their hit bonuses are the usual implement sorts, they can easily match the hit rates (though not the damage--usually) of a Ranger. Grab Enlarge Spell when you can, as that makes it much easier to get multiple enemies in a burst, and don't fear hitting a friend if it means hitting two more enemies (particularly minions).

I've generally found the character types that I have problems hitting with are my crossbow artificer (as I didn't have the feats to get really accurate between making sure I could use my bow without losing actions) -- particularly in comparison with my blaster wizard and avenger, who very rarely go a turn without hitting something.

Ah, a pacifist. that explains a few things, as does your load out of all attacks vs reflex. Keep in mind that as a pacifist, your job isn't really to hit stuff or to do damage. but keep mind that Astral Seal is a Wis + 2 vs reflex -- so your attack on that even as-is should be +8.

Unless you do a single target Wizard build. But then you could argue that you really ought to take as many feats and things as you can to get your attack up.

My biggest point is this: WHY must I pull out the stops to be on par with my martial friends? WHY must I try so hard and "waste" feat slots just to get my attack anywhere close to a Fighter? I trained just as long as he did. I should be just as proficient with my spells.

 

[Skism]

+8 should be the max with a +1 item?

Actually I think the max is +9 these days.

5(ability mod) + 1(1/2 level) + 1(enhancement) + 1(expertise) + 1(accurate implement)=

+9 and some fairly heavy investment into accuracy... unless I missed something(which is very likely).


EDIT: and corrections were made as I typed.

 

[Incenjucar]

I know that the Monk uses Unarmed. She gets a +3 Prof. with her unarmed fists. Is that not applied to her attacks?

Nope. Proficiency bonus only applies to Weapon attacks. Monk powers are all implement attacks.

 

[Miio]

So, I now understand that the Monk cannot use her +3 Prof with Unarmed on her attacks. That puts her on par with me. It makes since because she doesn't attack AC, just like I do not attack AC.

When is a monster's Reflex so much different from AC to warrant the serious lack of attack bonus for implement users?

 

[Incenjucar]

For most monsters, their NADs are roughly 2 lower than their AC, depending on role. There are exceptions.

 

[mneme]

Why would you do a single target wizard build? That's crazy talk. The primary advantage wizards have is at-will area attacks (and in optimization, one of the primary advantages they have is being the only class who can have a burst 2 or blast 4 at will). Mixing up a single target spell with a burst is fine--but then you're generally only using the single target spell when it's crazy effective on a hit or that's the only monster left.

But Milo, what you're missing is that NADs average to AC - 2 -- and vary. So an implement users who can target two different NADs will often have a -better- hit chance than a Fighter, as while the Fighter (not a great example, as they usually get +1 to hit, but lets go with it) is getting a +2 to +4 to hit, if you target a monster's weak NAD, you may be getting the equivalent of as much as a +5 to hit.

Clerics (particularly laser clerics) are a bit different, as there's only one non-Ref targetting At will, but they do get a +2 to hit with Astral Seal, and they -can- (and probably should, unless you're throwing extra resources into hit chance) take a melee prayer that targets a different defense.

Bascially, proficiency bonuses are intended to be balanced against the +2 that monsters (and PCs) get to their AC, relative to their other defenses. This makes things like the rogue and cleric weapon attacks against NADs super-accurate, but then, those don't have much else going for them.

 

[Miio]

To hit anything last night I had to roll at least a 10. I suppose I am just bitter! I only hit once in each of the 4 encounters.

I just know that I had the same issue as my Wizard in the first 4e campaign I ever played.

 

[Miio]

Why would you do a single target wizard build? That's crazy talk. The primary advantage wizards have is at-will area attacks (and in optimization, one of the primary advantages they have is being the only class who can have a burst 2 or blast 4 at will). Mixing up a single target spell with a burst is fine--but then you're generally only using the single target spell when it's crazy effective on a hit or that's the only monster left.

But Milo, what you're missing is that NADs average to AC - 2 -- and vary. So an implement users who can target two different NADs will often have a -better- hit chance than a Fighter, as while the Fighter (not a great example, as they usually get +1 to hit, but lets go with it) is getting a +2 to +4 to hit, if you target a monster's weak NAD, you may be getting the equivalent of as much as a +5 to hit.

Clerics (particularly laser clerics) are a bit different, as there's only one non-Ref targetting At will, but they do get a +2 to hit with Astral Seal, and they -can- (and probably should, unless you're throwing extra resources into hit chance) take a melee prayer that targets a different defense.

Bascially, proficiency bonuses are intended to be balanced against the +2 that monsters (and PCs) get to their AC, relative to their other defenses. This makes things like the rogue and cleric weapon attacks against NADs super-accurate, but then, those don't have much else going for them.

I didn't have a single target build, but you wouldn't believe the amount of wizards I know that do go single target as often as possible with their spells.

I do understand the intention behind my lower attack. I just don't like it. XD

 

[Incenjucar]

To hit anything last night I had to roll at least a 10.

This is how the game is designed. Roughly a 55% chance to hit unless you work at it by getting combat advantage or other bonuses.

Keep in mind that you can probably get like a +13 to hit every round with certain class/race combos and combat advantage.