How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[Thanael]

TIn the vast majority of fantasy fiction with fighter-types as main characters, they violate the laws of physics in the amount of punishment they can take without dying at the very least. Often, they violate it with the offensive capabilities or their agility, as well. That makes them super-human, which is counter to the "Fighters are exceptional, but mundane" line. Even non-fantasy fiction with a fighter-like main character (like Die Hard) have them be super-human by defying the laws of physics in that regard.

No they don't violate the laws of physics. An Action films physics work differently than real world physics. (Though often there are mook rules in place so the protagonist is superhuman compared to mooks)

In a fantasy world there are completely different "physics" at work. In 3.5 there are no mooks rules and a fighter 10 will take a lot of punishment. But so would a commoner 10 with a very high CON (even if not to the same extent). Both are exceptional in that they are higher level than most other people, but neither is really superhuman in the context of the laws of their world.

Perhaps mundane should also be redefined for most fantasy rules sets. I.e. many non- casting classes still get quasi magical/mythical abilities.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Perhaps mundane should also be redefined for most fantasy rules sets. I.e. many non- casting classes still get quasi magical/mythical abilities.

Full.

Frickin'.

Circle.

This is exactly how the wizard/warrior balance problem is handled in fantasy literature, and it would be a good model to handle it in D&D. This is how Batman can beat up Superman and the Joker.

Which is where this whole thing began.

"Martial" characters should get quasimagical/mythical abilities.

Like Batman's or Odysseus's wits.

Like Conan's strength.

Like Himura Kenshin's speed.

Things that no real person could ever really do should be the domain of the D&D warriors, since the D&D spellcasters already do things that no real person could ever really do.

 

[KahnyaGnorc]

I think you define "get hit" differently for the real SEAL and the fantasy Fighter. Hitpoints != wound points

Okay, how about getting CRIT by a giant? That'd be a full-on hit, AND the fighter would still say "That all ya got?!"

Also how about comparing the fantasy fighter to Bruce Willis in Die Hard ?

John McClane certainly has superhuman toughness. So, it is comparing superhuman to superhuman.

No they don't violate the laws of physics. An Action films physics work differently than real world physics. (Though often there are mook rules in place so the protagonist is superhuman compared to mooks)

That appears to me as redefining what superhuman means for the sole purpose of excluding action heroes and fantasy fighters.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Double Post.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That appears to me as redefining what superhuman means for the sole purpose of excluding action heroes and fantasy fighters.

And back we go into discussing RW human capabilities and fictionverse human capabilities...

No, that's not what is going on. It is a recognition that action heroes in various genres can be distinguished between by whether they are exceptional but not superhuman or truly superhuman within the fictional worlds they inhabit.

John McClane is certainly tough. Perhaps the toughest cop on the force; maybe the USA; the world. But his toughness is due to his training regimen, not from some super-serum, alien DNA or what have you. By the terms of the fictionverse he inhabits, others who train like he does could achieve analogous results.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

And back we go into discussing RW human capabilities and fictionverse human capabilities...

No, that's not what is going on. It is a recognition that action heroes in various genres can be distinguished between by whether they are exceptional but not superhuman or truly superhuman within the fictional worlds they inhabit.

John McClane is certainly tough. Perhaps the toughest cop on the force; maybe the USA; the world. But his toughness is due to his training regimen, not from some super-serum, alien DNA or what have you. By the terms of the fictionverse he inhabits, others who train like he does could achieve analogous results.

Full circle indeed, as once again we are ignoring the difference between in-world and in-narrative.

Seriously just close the thread, this is like the third time it's looped now.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Full.

Frickin'.

Circle.

And still no closer to resolution. A wheel goes full circle, but it keeps on turning.

Okay, how about getting CRIT by a giant? That'd be a full-on hit, AND the fighter would still say "That all ya got?!"

IF the fighter took a full-on hit, THEN he is dead. The measure of his remaining hit points, and not what the giant rolled to hit, is the sole determinant of whether or not he took a full-on hit in D&D.

That appears to me as redefining what superhuman means for the sole purpose of excluding action heroes and fantasy fighters.

Or redefining what human means to exclude fictional heroic characters who fall within human capability, right?



RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Full circle indeed, as once again we are ignoring the difference between in-world and in-narrative.

Seriously just close the thread, this is like the third time it's looped now.

Folks disagree with you and you can't disengage on your own, so the solution is to shut down the thread?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

"Martial" characters should get quasimagical/mythical abilities.

Like Batman's or Odysseus's wits.

Like Conan's strength.

Okay. Let's see it.

Let's see your Batman, Conan, and Odysseus in D&D terms with their "quasimagical/mythical" abilities.

I'm serious. I'm truly interested in how you're going to (a) give them abilities that you feel can "compete" with a wizard's, while (b) keeping them "normal" enough that people like me, who aren't interested in a magical Batman or Conan at all, playing the game.

My guess is that you don't care about (b). Which is fine, and will save a lot of time if you just say it outright.

 

[Mort]

And back we go into discussing RW human capabilities and fictionverse human capabilities...

No, that's not what is going on. It is a recognition that action heroes in various genres can be distinguished between by whether they are exceptional but not superhuman or truly superhuman within the fictional worlds they inhabit.

John McClane is certainly tough. Perhaps the toughest cop on the force; maybe the USA; the world. But his toughness is due to his training regimen, not from some super-serum, alien DNA or what have you. By the terms of the fictionverse he inhabits, others who train like he does could achieve analogous results.

I have to say I like this argument (liked it the first time you made it, which is why I dropped the batman as "superhuman" angle). In any dicussion you have to take in to account the "rules of the universe" you are discussing - so in the DC universe Batman is exceptional but not superhuman. It's actually a useful distinction.

Okay. Let's see it.

Let's see your Batman, Conan, and Odysseus in D&D terms with their "quasimagical/mythical" abilities.

I'm serious. I'm truly interested in how you're going to (a) give them abilities that you feel can "compete" with a wizard's, while (b) keeping them "normal" enough that people like me, who aren't interested in a magical Batman or Conan at all, playing the game.

My guess is that you don't care about (b). Which is fine, and will save a lot of time if you just say it outright.

With Batman this is not so tough, as he has access to ridiculous technology that essentially mimics magic in many respects. in D&D terms (though D&D is a lousy model for him) he would be a gestalt fighter/artificer. in GURPS I can't remember the exact things he would spend points on but it would be something like martial arts, massive wealth and gizmoteer abilities - which means while he's human, his point level is basically the same as Superman and he can compete on that level.

With Conan - you need some kind of fate/luck mechanic - he's reidiculously strong and tough, but he also has a knack for fate/luck (whatever) to intervene in the right place (after making him thoroughly miserable first of course). in Deadlands, for example, he would have several gold fate chips - which would alow a "yeah, I should be dead but this is actually to my advantage" type play.