D&D 4E Paizo and 4e.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Didn´t forget that in my earlier post!
Raven Crowking
First Post
I personally found a lot of useful material in 3pp.....sometimes far better material than in the official books. I think that relates more to what you want in a game than to any objective quality in the material. I've also never had any qualms about changing things to meet my needs, so something that almost does the job, but needs work, is better than something that doesn't do the job very well at all.
I think that the style of your game may also factor into the usefulness of products. In my games, the players are thrown a lot of options, and they choose what to follow up on. Some of those options are tougher, some have better rewards, etc.
If the players get to choose (what 3e calls "Status Quo Encounters") then I don't care how easy or tough the encounters are. I only care that I have placed sufficient means for the players to get some ability to gauge roughly how tough an area might be.
In an Adventure Path-type game, I would find it far more important that each of the encounters are balanced against the party, as their options for avoiding them would be necessarily limited.
Of course, it could also be that I've just been lucky in terms of what I've purchased.
I think that the style of your game may also factor into the usefulness of products. In my games, the players are thrown a lot of options, and they choose what to follow up on. Some of those options are tougher, some have better rewards, etc.
If the players get to choose (what 3e calls "Status Quo Encounters") then I don't care how easy or tough the encounters are. I only care that I have placed sufficient means for the players to get some ability to gauge roughly how tough an area might be.
In an Adventure Path-type game, I would find it far more important that each of the encounters are balanced against the party, as their options for avoiding them would be necessarily limited.
Of course, it could also be that I've just been lucky in terms of what I've purchased.
Imaro
Legend
You know, I sometimes wonder if the hardcore segment of gamers found on boards like EnWorld and such give a much larger voice to the importance of balance and mechanics than the average gamers.
I know we played with 3PP stuff and it wasn't banned. Now if something actually arose in play then it was scrutinized and looked at, but otherwise, as long as we were all having fun it didn't matter whether the material was 3PP or not. I guess that was just us though.
I know we played with 3PP stuff and it wasn't banned. Now if something actually arose in play then it was scrutinized and looked at, but otherwise, as long as we were all having fun it didn't matter whether the material was 3PP or not. I guess that was just us though.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
It was not that i was not open to 3rd parties. It was just the first book i opened:
Poor quality. Obviosly so unbalanced that it didn´t seem fun in play.
Coming from 2nd edition you were used to blatand imbalances. But most funnily, all those imbalances balanced out. Mages were great, but a level 1 mage firing off magic missiles or a level 1 fighter standing next to you and you did not a lot during the fight. So team work was encouraged, even if mechanics of the fighter did not have anything to support, but the DM was usually playing monsters as smart as they were.
you also could not directly compare different classes, as they earned xp on different rates and also leveled up differently.
Of course a bard was a weak class compared to the mage, but he could protect itself in battle, could do something after his spells were used, and last but not least, he was usually some levels ahead of everyone, so he was not that far behind on the courve as it looked on paper.
With 3rd edition, putting everything on the same scale made everything comparable. If you then look at the bard... he was the only class in the transition from ADnD to 3rd edition, that LOST a spell (which could be compensated by high stats), he LOST his level advantage.
The fighter though looking great on paper LOST his great save progression and fast advancement and his special extra attacks per turn.
The wizard only lost one thing: the chance that his spells were interrupted.
Once again drifting away... what I wanted to say: when everything is on the same scale, yoiu start to compare. And IF classes that should fill the same role are obviously differently powerful, then you have trobles. And if the first book you look into and see (prestige) classes with abilities that are ridulously more powerful than anything else in those books, then you don´t want to have that in your game.
I am a little bit opposed to pathfinder, as it is too fiddly for my tastes. But instead of saying: lets take everything down to PHB 1 power levels they went out and said: Hey, we have those ridiculously powerful choices in 3.5, lets try to make a new PHB with classes that at least can compete. And lets make a lot of options to those classes, that a wide array of subclasses are covered.
This is what makes it so successful, i believe:
a resemblance of balance when containing yourself only to the Pathfinder PHB, and enough choices to make this containment not feel too narrow.
Poor quality. Obviosly so unbalanced that it didn´t seem fun in play.
Coming from 2nd edition you were used to blatand imbalances. But most funnily, all those imbalances balanced out. Mages were great, but a level 1 mage firing off magic missiles or a level 1 fighter standing next to you and you did not a lot during the fight. So team work was encouraged, even if mechanics of the fighter did not have anything to support, but the DM was usually playing monsters as smart as they were.
you also could not directly compare different classes, as they earned xp on different rates and also leveled up differently.
Of course a bard was a weak class compared to the mage, but he could protect itself in battle, could do something after his spells were used, and last but not least, he was usually some levels ahead of everyone, so he was not that far behind on the courve as it looked on paper.
With 3rd edition, putting everything on the same scale made everything comparable. If you then look at the bard... he was the only class in the transition from ADnD to 3rd edition, that LOST a spell (which could be compensated by high stats), he LOST his level advantage.
The fighter though looking great on paper LOST his great save progression and fast advancement and his special extra attacks per turn.
The wizard only lost one thing: the chance that his spells were interrupted.
Once again drifting away... what I wanted to say: when everything is on the same scale, yoiu start to compare. And IF classes that should fill the same role are obviously differently powerful, then you have trobles. And if the first book you look into and see (prestige) classes with abilities that are ridulously more powerful than anything else in those books, then you don´t want to have that in your game.
I am a little bit opposed to pathfinder, as it is too fiddly for my tastes. But instead of saying: lets take everything down to PHB 1 power levels they went out and said: Hey, we have those ridiculously powerful choices in 3.5, lets try to make a new PHB with classes that at least can compete. And lets make a lot of options to those classes, that a wide array of subclasses are covered.
This is what makes it so successful, i believe:
a resemblance of balance when containing yourself only to the Pathfinder PHB, and enough choices to make this containment not feel too narrow.
Fifth Element
Legend
I've XP'd you too recently, but I gladly accept the responsibility for that!The following is your fault -
Fifth Element
Legend
I suspect this is true. My group plays 4E using the original books, without incorporating errata. Powers that some claim are "broken" aren't even thought of as being super-great by the players. Most of them pick powers based on their character, what he/she would do rather than what's mechanically superior. And we have a great time.
DaveMage
Slumbering in Tsar
EN World was a big help with that. The staff reviews helped users know which were the worst of the lot.
Still, even some of the duds had some good stuff buried in 'em. I waited until they were 99 cents on e-bay.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Broken power make themself obvious if powergamers are trying hard... rain of blows was broken. Now it is a good power in normal players hands, and still very good for powergamers.
Brokenness shows, when powergamers reveal themself: "Hey, i have good reasons why I specialize in bastardswords and ranged powers... I will surely find a farbond blade soon." So the errata guy may think: lets reduce it to once per encounter. A casual gamer won´t notice the difference, a power gamer does!
Brokenness shows, when powergamers reveal themself: "Hey, i have good reasons why I specialize in bastardswords and ranged powers... I will surely find a farbond blade soon." So the errata guy may think: lets reduce it to once per encounter. A casual gamer won´t notice the difference, a power gamer does!
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Too bad, i didn´t even know about enworld back then!EN World was a big help with that. The staff reviews helped users know which were the worst of the lot.
Still, even some of the duds had some good stuff buried in 'em. I waited until they were 99 cents on e-bay.
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