Points of Light - replacement for random encounters

[TheClone]

Where is the * for the "roll <= threat level" explained? Or is an advertisment-star that never gets explained anywhere?

I'm pretty happy with the system as it is. It's quick and easy and does what a random encounter system has to do. I'm only wondering whether it makes sense to dig out some of those "skill challenge encounters" proposals to use on the easy enounters instead of having just 1d4-1 to give the players a little more influence to the outcome of the encounter. Something like "If you sneak up on them you can easily overwhelm them" and losing surges based on the the results of those rolls. There should already be some idea for that on the net, although I have non at hand.

The Slaughterhouse system is awesome. I finally read it and it's a really cool and easy system for a kind of randomness on a higher level. But it won't solve the random encounter thing. But I'm going to use it soon. I really appreciate the sandbox idea. Unfortunatelly, I can't give any XP to Pbartender again.

 

[Arlough]

Where is the * for the "roll <= threat level" explained? Or is an advertisment-star that never gets explained anywhere?

Sorry, copy/paste fail on my part.

Originally the * was "If they wish, they can spend a Daily attack power to prevent the loss of 2 surges." and was supposed to be on all of them.

I'm only wondering whether it makes sense to dig out some of those "skill challenge encounters" proposals to use on the easy enounters instead of having just 1d4-1 to give the players a little more influence to the outcome of the encounter. Something like "If you sneak up on them you can easily overwhelm them" and losing surges based on the the results of those rolls. There should already be some idea for that on the net, although I have non at hand.

This is where using skills gives you bonuses to the d20 roll. So, if you are in a level 7 zone, and your party sneaks through with a successful group stealth check, you would get a bonus to the roll (maybe 2) making it so that even if you roll a 1, the total of the roll plus sneak modifier is 3, therefore only 1d4-1 surges lost instead of 1d4.
Of course, you can also get penalties to the roll. For example, if you are in a hostile land, that happens to be flat and featureless dry lake bed, you are much more likely to be spotted and targeted, so that would give you a -2 to the check.

I have also, now, come to the conclusion that many small adjustments need to be made. Some to clarify, some to balance, and some just to achieve a higher level of standardization of terms and values. In this vein, I will actually formalize the system as it stands in a document and post it here shortly in PDF format.

As I am working on this, though, I would like some help gathering info so I can not just balance everything to be fair, but more importantly to be fun.
So, if I can get some data from you guys...

I have become aware that my players seem to value just about everything over surges. In fact, I would now wager that all but two of my latest group would even value 5 hp over 1 surge. And those two are the most experienced.
But, I wonder if this is a common theme, or if it is just that I haven't forced them to really value those surges yet.
So, could anyone give me some feedback on what their group values more? Basically, could you order this list from 1 - 6 with 1 being the most valuable and 6 being the least valuable to your players as per their actions.

• Daily Attack Powers
• Daily Item Powers
• Action Points
• Healing Surges
• HP
• other things I haven't thought of yet

I know that if I actually ask "Do you think it is worth it to spend a surge to get back 5 hit points?" my group will almost universally say "No." but I also know that they will sometimes do just that unless it is questioned.

 

[TheUltramark]

let's pretend I am not as advanced as everyone else
--what is 'NOVA' ???

next, I agree with Andy 3K. You can plan an encounter that seems random, or sometimes, I will even plan a set of three encounters and use that as a wandering monster chart, but for me, everything is usually prepped.

 

[andy3k]

My group has had more than one instance of running out of healing surges half way through a combat encounter. I don't think people value healing surges much until that happens a couple of times. Same thing goes for Second Wind, which my group ignores UNLESS we run two encounters back to back without short rest and we are out of healing.

Valuation:
1. Standard actions
2. Move actions have variable importance
3. Daily attack AND utility powers
4. Action points
5. Daily item powers
6. Healing surges
7. Hit points

In my particular group, not getting to take your standard action is the most painful punishment that exists. Move actions vary between completely unimportant to critical, depending on character design and encounter details. Daily utility powers can be just as useful as combat powers. Daily item powers are fun and effective but usually quite conditional. Most of the time, we do not run out of surges, even when we run into monsters that steal surges, so losing 1 or 2 is not critical. Losing hit points is even less important UNLESS hit points lost in one hit is greater than healing surge value, in which case it switches places with healing surges.

The top two and bottom two priorities can easily change places in the priority list depending on the DM. If I choose to run creatures or effects that stun or daze then priority 1 drops to the bottom. If combat is usually difficult, monsters and effects steal surges, and healing isn't plentiful, then healing surges and hit points become more valuable ... but DMs usually do not push games to the dangerous but not TPK level.

 

[Pbartender]

The Slaughterhouse system is awesome. I finally read it and it's a really cool and easy system for a kind of randomness on a higher level. But it won't solve the random encounter thing.

Why not?

Essentially, it sets up regional random encounter lists (the rosters) with fuzzy population limits for the region (the population thresholds), and adds in triggered consequences for depleting the monster population. The only thing it doesn't do is provide a means to determine how and when those encounters take place...

Usually, that's Arbitrated by the DM, based on the player's actions. But nothing says you couldn't add in a simple means to determine "wandering" encounters based on the roster of an zone... You could even make it a part of an open-ended skill challenge such as Mike Mearls presents here.

 

[Arlough]

let's pretend I am not as advanced as everyone else
--what is 'NOVA' ???

Nova is when a star suddenly flares brightly due to runaway fusion reaction releasing much of the energy it recently aquired from a companion star. A supernova is when something similar happens (through different means, though) and the star explodes, destroying anything nearby.

In D&D, nova is when one or more characters expends a proportionately large amount of their combat resources, particularly daily powers and Action points, to do tremendous damage in short order. This can be a risky move, since 4th was made under the premise that you would most likely expend about 20% of your combat resources per encounter (on average) and therefore if you spend more than that, you would have less for the remaining encounters in a day. But, if the players either know they will only have one encounter that day, or maybe can even choose when they take and extended rest, then it reduces the risk associated with going nova to nil, and makes the subsequent fight non-challenging.
I am guessing that the term nova in D&D actually is a shortened form of supernova, but either works for the analogy.

If you have an encounter that is within 3 levels of your party, and they all immediately pull out all their daily powers and action points, they can "explode" with damage capable of dropping just about any opponent before that opponent can deal significant damage. Then as a DM you have to choose whether you attack them again, and risk TPK (usually not fun in the classic sense) or take it easy on them but reinforce the "5 minute day" method of play (fight for one 5 minute encounter and then go take an extended rest to regain all the party resources.)

 

[TheClone]

Sorry, copy/paste fail on my part.

Originally the * was "If they wish, they can spend a Daily attack power to prevent the loss of 2 surges." and was supposed to be on all of them.



This is where using skills gives you bonuses to the d20 roll. So, if you are in a level 7 zone, and your party sneaks through with a successful group stealth check, you would get a bonus to the roll (maybe 2) making it so that even if you roll a 1, the total of the roll plus sneak modifier is 3, therefore only 1d4-1 surges lost instead of 1d4.
Of course, you can also get penalties to the roll. For example, if you are in a hostile land, that happens to be flat and featureless dry lake bed, you are much more likely to be spotted and targeted, so that would give you a -2 to the check.

Okay, I didn't really consider that due to some "no brain" reason. So just forget what I posted, your solution pretty much perfect

I have also, now, come to the conclusion that many small adjustments need to be made. Some to clarify, some to balance, and some just to achieve a higher level of standardization of terms and values. In this vein, I will actually formalize the system as it stands in a document and post it here shortly in PDF format.

As I am working on this, though, I would like some help gathering info so I can not just balance everything to be fair, but more importantly to be fun.
So, if I can get some data from you guys...

I'll have to try to do that, but I guess it will take some weeks to months until I get some valuable data due to my low 4e-dm-frequency. If you have some spare time it would be great to have a condension of the system so far as a PDF, so I can print it out and put it into my dm folder so I'll remember to use it in time.

I have become aware that my players seem to value just about everything over surges. In fact, I would now wager that all but two of my latest group would even value 5 hp over 1 surge. And those two are the most experienced.
But, I wonder if this is a common theme, or if it is just that I haven't forced them to really value those surges yet.
So, could anyone give me some feedback on what their group values more? Basically, could you order this list from 1 - 6 with 1 being the most valuable and 6 being the least valuable to your players as per their actions.[...]

Maybe they value the surges not so much because they can rest often easily and didn't run into what [MENTION=6674918]andy3k[/MENTION] described? My groups usually go along until most of the group lost their dailies and such OR until the surges of most of the group are down to just a few. "most of the group" meaning here something around 50%, depending on the circumstances like probability to rest without being ambushed or the expected difficulty or number of the encounters ahead.

My value hit list:
1. Standard actions
2. Daily attack powers
3. Action points
4. Move actions
5. Daily item powers
6. Hit points (I'd say beginning with surge value/2, everything lower is rank 8)
7. Healing surges
-. Utility powers vary greatly, depending on their actual use and properties

I must admit it's relatively rough, because I haven't spent much attention to that until know, partly because I didn't dm 4e that often yet.

Why not?

Essentially, it sets up regional random encounter lists (the rosters) with fuzzy population limits for the region (the population thresholds), and adds in triggered consequences for depleting the monster population. The only thing it doesn't do is provide a means to determine how and when those encounters take place...

Usually, that's Arbitrated by the DM, based on the player's actions. But nothing says you couldn't add in a simple means to determine "wandering" encounters based on the roster of an zone... You could even make it a part of an open-ended skill challenge such as Mike Mearls presents here.

If there would be no Slaughterhouse system and I was about to design a megadungeon or a battled city, I wouldn't use random encounters really much. I would design it to every single encounter and bury myself in far too much work, thus saying I'd never do it. But I wouldn't build it mainly with randoms. Surely you can do, but I personally wouldn't. And I'll have to check on that article later, but I will.

One additional though: The Slaughterhouse system is not specifically designed to let the players being ambushed while camping or the neat idea of rolling a new encounter almost right after the last fight and such stuff. You can do that, but it's more of an addition to the system. At least as of I think I would use it.

 

[Arlough]

If you have some spare time it would be great to have a condension of the system so far as a PDF, so I can print it out and put it into my dm folder so I'll remember to use it in time.

Threw together a write up late Saturday and Sunday nights, and just converted it to PDF and posted it a few minutes ago.
This is a very preliminary version, and much is likely to change, but it should cover some of the basics.

Some things that have changed, mostly to conform to 4th edition tropes.

• You roll to see if you "hit" a zone's Threat Level, rather than see if you can exceed it. This was done to bring it more in line with other mechanics of 4th ed.
• A Threat Level of 1 now means you have no chance of random events, adjusting up by 5% each threat level. This helps the enemy density to fit into the paradigms of Heroic (0% - 45% chance of random encounter), Paragon (50% - 95% chance of random encounter), and Epic enemy density (100% and up chances of random encounters).

Other changes you will see if you download and read the document. More changes to come as I have the time to refine the system.

 

[TheClone]

Maybe it's my fault, but where can I find the link?

 

[Arlough]

Maybe it's my fault, but where can I find the link?

Sorry, I don't upload stuff often. I didn't even think about the fact that most of us just go to the last post.

I put it in the first post, here.