Apparently, previous editions of D&D...

[TarionzCousin]

Note: my wife is a veterinarian.

The vet was not remiss for not treating the wound on a person. The vet *is not licensed to treat humans*.

But [MENTION=59506]El Mahdi[/MENTION] isn't human. He's a Half-Dragon!

 

[Umbran]

According to the Click2 article (remember, I live here, it's a local story), the cat was feral. Feral as in wild. It was a feline of the house cat species that allegedly has NEVER been touched by a human.

Maybe it was feral, maybe it wasn't. Given that healthy cats, feral or otherwise, don't make a habit of attacking things over 5 times their size unprovoked, I daresay there's more to the story than is seen in the articles.

Which is neither here nor there, really. I don't see your point - a cat can be well-fed and feral at the same time.

El Mahdi proves my point with science.
Fear biting IS a predictable thing.

El Madhi makes good points, but they do not prove anything. They merely note a tendency in the species. What he says does not lead to an ironclad truth that no well-trained dog will ever bite. There are no absolutes when speaking about the behavior of complex animals.

Yes, fear biting is sometimes predictable, if you know what to look for, and the situation develops over enough time for the dog to be telegraphing its mood (as opposed to a sudden reaction), and you aren't distracted. However, even if fear-bites were 100% predictable, fear is by no means the only thing that lead a dog to bite.

 

[El Mahdi]

Perhaps not the ability to read facial expressions, specifically, but let us not overstate the case by being too specific. Cats can interpret human emotional states to some degree - but it is based more off body posture and vocal tone than upon facial expression. They aren't as good at it as dogs, and the frequency at which the cat cares about human emotional state is probably less than that you typically see in dogs. They aren't as social a species.

Anedcotal, but demonstrative - One of our cats, for example, can tell with nigh-unerring accuracy when my wife is having a nightmare. He can tell better than I can. And he responds with what, to a cat, is comforting behavior - he curls up next to her, and purrs his little heart out, and kneads. She rarely wakes up at the time, so it isn't like he's getting a payoff in attention. He can simply tell she's distressed, and does something about it.

Domestic house cats are not exactly the same as other cat species, or even feral house cats. There's a socialization step that, if undertaken when the cat is a kitten, allows them to cue into humans in ways that wild species cannot (even when given similar exposure to humans) and ferals that didn't have the exposure when young don't.

Yeah, that socialization step must be the key. I've seen stray cats that lived on their own for most of their life, that ended up being awesome house cats when adopted - but only because they had some kind of life or socialization with humans when young. A cat that never had that - forget about it. It's never going to be your pet.

I agree with you about the emotions. I wasn't trying to say that cats don't interact emotionally with people, just the reading faces part.
My wife and I have adopted a few stray cats over the years. One we named Jinxy, was a stray tom that lived around my apartment. He was friendly but very independent. Before my wife and I got married (while I was still living in the apartment alone), he'd stop by and say Hi occasionally. If I left a door open, he'd come right in and make himself at home. He'd sit on the couch, let me pet him - just generally hang out. But if I closed the doors, he'd start meowing like crazy to be let out. He did the same thing with my (soon to be) wife. But, just after my wife and I were married and she was all moved in, I had to deploy to Afghanistan. Within days of my leaving, Jinxy stopped by, my wife let him in, but for some reason he now decided to stay. My wife could close the doors and he was just fine. She was a bit of a wreck with me deployed, so Jinxy possibly sensing this, started curling up next to her head at night. After I returned he stopped doing it, and didn't even want to sleep on the bed anymore - and he still didn't mind having the doors shut. I guess to be more accurate, he adopted us, rather than we adopting him. He was a wonderfully affectionate cat.

It's so cool though how dogs can read human faces almost exactly the same as people do. The study I saw involved both Dogs and people looking at slides of objects, other animals, and human faces. When shown a picture of a persons face, Dogs and People all have a quick eye flick to the left side of the pictures face (something neither did with pictures of objects or animals). Apparently, human expressions aren't displayed equally on the left and right sides of the face - the left seems to be the more accurate or prominent representation of expressed mood/intent. Humans and Dogs both instinctively do a quick check of the left side of a human face to judge their emotional status. Something Wolves are incapable of (both inherited and learned). Also, unlike Wolves, Dogs are able to respond to pointing. Wolves are unable to learn this also. I don't know if Wolves can learn this or not, but Dogs do definitely learn and understand Human words, with some understanding a fairly large vocabulary. I've heard said that Wolves are generally "smarter" than Dogs, but I'm not sure I completely buy it. I think their intelligences are "different", but I don't completely believe that Wolves are objectively smarter.

Of course, if the dude was foolish enough to cheese off a 20 lb cat, and then lost the fight when he had a weapon, I wouldn't expect him to admit it publicly.

No doubt. Not to mention the obvious nickname he'd earn. (It's tooooo easy, and probably not approved by Eric's Grandma anyways...so I'll just leave it unmentioned...)

Though I was only bitten once by one of my Maine Coons- which, BTW, can get into the 25-35 pound range (at 15 & 18, ours were "runts")- when I startled him in his sleep, I do share that "WTF, cat?!" experience. I wasn't kidding when I said I get bitten every time I go to my buddy's house. That cat goes from "Scwatch my eaws, pwetty pwease!" to "DIE, Foul Ear-Scratcher!!!" in a fraction of a second.

They are just the most mercurial damn animals, aren't they?!?

I had a female calico when I was a kid that was like that. Every night she'd jump up on my bed. She'd start laying on the bed around where my waist was, and curl up against me (after a quick head scratch from me). A few minutes later she'd move up by my chest. A few minutes after that she'd move up by my shoulder, and want to be petted. After a few minutes of that, she'd suddenly nip my nose (nothing hard - just a quick nip) then quickly jump to another part of the bed and settle in for the night, or jump off the bed for somewhere else. It was like a regular ritual. I have no idea what the hell she was thinking, but it was the wierdest damn thing.

Oh yeah, and those Maine Coons do get big. My aunt has one that's about 20 pounds and definitely not fat. No belly, all muscle.

But El Mahdi <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->isn't human. He's a Half-Dragon!

Naaahhhh...I just play one on the internet.

 

[El Mahdi]

As to dogs biting vs. cats. El Mahdi proves my point with science.
Fear biting IS a predictable thing. As in, the dog is stressed, be careful so he doesn't bite you. Perhaps I am a rare dog owner who knows when to expect a bite risk.

El Madhi makes good points, but they do not prove anything. They merely note a tendency in the species. What he says does not lead to an ironclad truth that no well-trained dog will ever bite. There are no absolutes when speaking about the behavior of complex animals.

Absolutely!

The only absolute with animals is there is no absolute (kind of like people).

I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying Janx. Training a Dog can mitigate the risk, but it will by no means eliminate the risk. I've been around dogs all my life, and although not a professional, I'm really good with dogs and most animals (my wife always calls me the Animal Whisperer). I have a very well trained dog currently, and there's still been a couple of times when he's nipped at me, I've just been fortunate enough to be quicker than him both times.

I remember a friends dog when I was in high school. It was a little poodle mutt/mix, a really friendly, well trained dog that knew me quite well. Whenever I'd go over, the dog would always want to sit in my lap and be petted. However, one day while petting it, it suddenly jumped up and lunged at my face in an attempt to bite me - for no apparent reason (at least no reason I could ascertain). It didn't puncture the skin, but it left a significant scratch on my face. I never saw it coming. It wasn't showing nervousness or fear at the time (at least as far as I could tell), and wasn't tensed up prior to it's lunging (though it was tensed up then!) We never understood why it did this. Afterward and later, the dog was fine again. It would still sit in my lap and let me pet her with no problems.

Dogs do show emotion, but not always. They will sometimes hide their emotions, pain, or distress as a defense mechanism (i.e.: showing such things to another dog could be dangerous in some situations). And their faces can show emotion to a certain extent, but definitely not to the same extent as Humans (they just don't have the same extent of facial muscles we do, and there's the whole fur thing as well). Many times it is possible to understand a situation well enough and see cues from the dog that can indicate an imminent reaction, but definitely not 100% percent of the time. Just because you've been 100% successful up to this point, doesn't mean that in every such situation in the future that will necessarily remain so.

 

[Umbran]

Yeah, that socialization step must be the key. I've seen stray cats that lived on their own for most of their life, that ended up being awesome house cats when adopted - but only because they had some kind of life or socialization with humans when young. A cat that never had that - forget about it. It's never going to be your pet.

For most folks, yes - if the cat was never socialized young, it isn't going to be a suitable housepet. There are a few people who knew their stuff that I've seen socialize ferals, but even their success rates were low.

My wife and I have adopted a few stray cats over the years.

With my wife, picking up unwanted animals is a downright occupational hazard. One day we went out to get stakes for the tomatoes in our garden, and we came back with a kitten.

She was a bit of a wreck with me deployed, so Jinxy possibly sensing this, started curling up next to her head at night. After I returned he stopped doing it, and didn't even want to sleep on the bed anymore - and he still didn't mind having the doors shut. I guess to be more accurate, he adopted us, rather than we adopting him. He was a wonderfully affectionate cat.

Okay, he sounds like a cool beast.

It's so cool though how dogs can read human faces almost exactly the same as people do.

That it is. I don't want to downplay the coolness of that.

Oh yeah, and those Maine Coons do get big. My aunt has one that's about 20 pounds and definitely not fat. No belly, all muscle.

Last week, a breeder brought a litter of seven Maine Coons in for wellness checks to my wife. We almost got one of those too - she had a hard time resisting the pile of fluffy cute.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

With my wife, picking up unwanted animals is a downright occupational hazard. One day we went out to get stakes for the tomatoes in our garden, and we came back with a kitten.

I see a flaw in yor plan: kittens are not well-suited to the task of being tomato stakes.

Last week, a breeder brought a litter of seven Maine Coons in for wellness checks to my wife. We almost got one of those too - she had a hard time resisting the pile of fluffy cute.

Apparently, someone rolled a 20 on their Will saves!

 

[BlueBlackRed]

My wife is an occupational therapist specializing in hands.
On more than a few occasions a simple "freaked out cat bite" can sever tendons.
While potentially less deadly than an infection, it will probably require surgery and rehab to fix (or almost fix).

 

[Scott DeWar]

Absolutely!

The only absolute with animals is there is no absolute (kind of like people).

absolutuely! Wait, huh?

For most folks, yes - if the cat was never socialized young, it isn't going to be a suitable housepet. There are a few people who knew their stuff that I've seen socialize ferals, but even their success rates were low.

This is not a common occurrence, but a former roommate once fed a stray a can of tuna and then we could not get rid of the critter- made a good mouser though!

With my wife, picking up unwanted animals is a downright occupational hazard. One day we went out to get stakes for the tomatoes in our garden, and we came back with a kitten.

I see a flaw in your plan: kittens are not well-suited to the task of being tomato stakes.

snort! har har! he he chuckle chortle he he ha ha ha!

 

[Rhun]

This is not a common occurrence, but a former roommate once fed a stray a can of tuna and then we could not get rid of the critter- made a good mouser though!

I have a mated pair of ducks that has returned to my yard every spring for about the past 5 years because I feed them bread when I see them.

 

[Umbran]

I see a flaw in yor plan: kittens are not well-suited to the task of being tomato stakes.

Yes, well, kittens never go according to plan, do they?

absolutuely! Wait, huh?

The old saying form my biologist friends is that given precisely controlled levels of nutrients, light, temperature, humidity, pH, and other variables, the organism will do whatever it darn well pleases.

This is not a common occurrence, but a former roommate once fed a stray a can of tuna and then we could not get rid of the critter- made a good mouser though!

It may not be something you do often, but it is common. Most any animal will hang around a source of decent food. Dogs, cats, grad students, you name it. Once you feed 'em, you can't get rid of them.