Should this be fixed

Truer words were never spoken... er... written.

The first step in recovery is admitting that you have a problem.

These two haven't admitted anything yet.

It seems like everyone else in the group has recognized that there is a problem and taken steps to try to fix it. These two have only reluctantly had slight changes forced upon them.

One of the issues and it has always been here is that those two are best friends. They were college roommates and have known each other for over 20 years. I think they feed of each other. If one has a problem then so does the other. If one loves the game so does the other.

It was not as bad when we had four other players in the group. It kind of dilated the effect.

I do get it. My roommate and I have been roommates for 32 years and we have to be careful not to feed off each other. To try and avoid the knee jerk reaction of taking sides.
 

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The player playing the warlock and the dwarf made the role playing decision not to trust the new characters. They feel it is some kind of trick. It does not seem to matter that the prelate of St Cuthbert main temple who the dwarf trusts has vouched for the paladin. Pointing out to him that he is one of only 12 paladins in the order.

I think this right there pretty much solidifies that this is absolutely not an "in game" problem but an out of game problem that the players are (poorly) framing as a character issue. Hopefully the two players will recognize they are being jerks and move on/get over it. Good luck!
 

I think this right there pretty much solidifies that this is absolutely not an "in game" problem but an out of game problem that the players are (poorly) framing as a character issue. Hopefully the two players will recognize they are being jerks and move on/get over it. Good luck!

The DM tried to talk to them tonight. The player playing the dwarf said that it makes sense considering his character is paranoid and he used examples from his Shadowrun game about why he would consider not trusting his god. He thinks his god is being used by an evil god.

The DM pointed out that Shadowrun and DnD are two completely different type games and that in Shadowrun there are no gods. She finally got through to him. At least it sounded that way.

The other player is using the old role playing excuse. But she got kind of firm on the phone and told him if he didn't knock it off she was going to end the game. That seemed to get through to him.
 


I have found that players can sometimes be whiny babies. The player playing the warlock was very upset when she asked him to change the feat that she said he could use to have two eldritch blasts a round. He didn't see it as over powered.

At fourth level it was doing 13D6 a round. I pointed out to him that most wizard spells max out at 10Dwhatever and that usually does not happen until very high level.

Although it should be used carefully, filling the serial numbers off a PC and using it as a foe can a good way to see how players react to the power level.
 

I think the issues with the dwarf player are going to turn out to be the easiest to fix
And now he is also upset over me and the cleric's player being upset with the dwarf over killing the necromancer.
I'm sorry to hear about disagreements in any RPG group, and wish you good luck on sorting them out. I don't want to give any gratuitous advice on how you and your roommate should go about doing this.

The rest of this post is only picking up on some of the comments on this thread that indicate various approaches to playing an RPG.

If the DM says something isn't evil, then in her world it isn't evil. The dwarf's player insisting it is evil is just an excuse for being a PITA.
From the way you phrase it, this player seems to be holding the rest of the group hostage to his way of playing (and his worldview, regardless of the DM).
the DM went out of her way to ensure that the player understood the norms. She informed the players that the items were not evil. She gave the player the option to make a Wisdom save before taking his action (which, in any group I've ever been in, means you're doing something you might want to reconsider).
It really does not matter what the DM says to the player about her world he does what he wants to.
This way of approaching the game is all fairly foreign to me. I'm used to the GM having the primary responsibility for presenting the gameworld, but the players having the primary responsibility for interpreting it in moral/political terms - so, for example, if the GM establishes a group of wizards who are both necromancers and (ostensibly) lawful good I assume that it is up to the players to decide whether they morally approve of those wizards or regard them as wicked defilers of corpses.

This sort of judgement by the players is where the energy and direction of the game then come from.

Likewise, I think it's up to the players rather than the GM to decide what counts as loot (ie not just stuff that someone in the world might conceivably value, but stuff that their PCs are prepared to value). So if the GM places (for example) a Sphere of Annihilation or a life-draining intelligent sword or a Talisman of (forgotten adjective?) Evil I think it is up to the players to decide whether the PCs keep, sell or destroy.

How the GM should respond to these decisions - in terms of maintaining some notional "balance of treasure gained" - turns on the details of the rules system and campaign in question. As far as 4e is concerned, I agree with what Blue said upthread.

The player of the dwarf (the player, not the character) is a jackass. He is deliberately playing in a manner designed to inflict annoyance on the other players (not the characters, but the players), and justifying it in the name of "roleplaying".

"Roleplaying" is not a license to annoy the rest of the gaming group.
A good roleplayer does things in character while helping or at least not disrupting the party.
It isn't always easy to find "in character" solution that won't be "against" the party sometimes, but where is will, there is a way.
These comments resonate strongly with me. Particularly if individual players decide to present their PCs as engaging in some sort of moral or political disagreement, then there is an obligation - in order to preserve peace at the table, and in D&D also to preserve the viability of party play - that those conflicts be played out in a way that doesn't completely disrupt the party, and the other players, and thereby ruin the game. Given the degree of emotional investment that an RPG can generate (in my experience, at least), I think reciprocation, generosity and forbearance by all players should be the starting point here.

Part of the difficulty in conventional D&D play is that stuff that is really important to the basic play of the game - like getting treasure - is often very much at odds with conventional real-world evaluative judgements (which tend to frown upon killing and looting, and might also find trading in necromantic teaching tools somewhat distasteful). In my experience, this can tend to increase the likelihood of intraparty evaluative conflict if even one player has decided to play a character with strong and non-mercenary values. As a GM, my approach is therefore to downplay the signficance of looting by having treasure come from other sources (patrons, gifts from the gods, etc).

So like I said at the start of this post, I don't want to stick my nose into another group's intragroup disagreements. But considered in the abstract, I don't find the situation described in the OP to be an outrageous one. And I've had similar situations occur in my game, in which evaluative disagreements between PCs, which in part reflect differing evalauative (moral and/or aesthetic) responses by the players, have caused problems in working out what is an item of loot and what an evil artefact to be destroyed. In my view, that such a situation occurs does not, in and of itself, show that a player is being unreasonable. And I personally don't feel it's the job of the GM to "resolve" the situation by telling one of the players how to play his/her PC (whether via a Wisdom check mechanic or some other device). It's primarily up to the players to resolve, whether ingame (ie by roleplaying) or at the metagame level.
 

This way of approaching the game is all fairly foreign to me. I'm used to the GM having the primary responsibility for presenting the gameworld, but the players having the primary responsibility for interpreting it in moral/political terms - so, for example, if the GM establishes a group of wizards who are both necromancers and (ostensibly) lawful good I assume that it is up to the players to decide whether they morally approve of those wizards or regard them as wicked defilers of corpses.

This sort of judgement by the players is where the energy and direction of the game then come from.

Likewise, I think it's up to the players rather than the GM to decide what counts as loot (ie not just stuff that someone in the world might conceivably value, but stuff that their PCs are prepared to value). So if the GM places (for example) a Sphere of Annihilation or a life-draining intelligent sword or a Talisman of (forgotten adjective?) Evil I think it is up to the players to decide whether the PCs keep, sell or destroy.

How the GM should respond to these decisions - in terms of maintaining some notional "balance of treasure gained" - turns on the details of the rules system and campaign in question. As far as 4e is concerned, I agree with what Blue said upthread.

I actually agree that it is primarily the players' job to determine their role/interaction within the DM's world and that it does not have to necessarily agree with what the DM "intends" or be consistant with the other players (Heck in my recent campaign I presented the PCs with a bunch of symbiotes as (very icky but valuable) treasure - their reaction was 100% up to them). But it is also the players' job to moderate the interpretation in such a way as to not consistantly and intentionally cause friction between players at the table. Essentialy the "Don't be a jerk" rule. Even with the small amount of information seen here, the players presented seem to have crossed that line (Seriously, turning invisible running into the other room and destroying the treasure while the others are occupied?).

So like I said at the start of this post, I don't want to stick my nose into another group's intragroup disagreements. But considered in the abstract, I don't find the situation described in the OP to be an outrageous one. And I've had similar situations occur in my game, in which evaluative disagreements between PCs, which in part reflect differing evalauative (moral and/or aesthetic) responses by the players, have caused problems in working out what is an item of loot and what an evil artefact to be destroyed. In my view, that such a situation occurs does not, in and of itself, show that a player is being unreasonable. And I personally don't feel it's the job of the GM to "resolve" the situation by telling one of the players how to play his/her PC (whether via a Wisdom check mechanic or some other device). It's primarily up to the players to resolve, whether ingame (ie by roleplaying) or at the metagame level.

In the abstract character friction and even conflict is fine, as long as the players are the ones moving it along and are all fine with it. What's not fine is one (or two) player(s) pushing their playstyle on the rest of the players and DM and essentially running roughshod/hijacking the scenarios - campaign be damned. Again it boils down to if the player is being a jerk and the campaign is suffering as a result - there is a problem and it's not an in game one.
 

I have to agree that the players not the DM get to decide how their PCs react to the world.

If the player wants to believe that all necromancers are evil and anything to do with it is evil that is his right.

But the DM runs the world and gets to decide how the NPCs in the world react to what PCs do. She didn't interfere when the player chose to have his PC kill the necromancer. Which he did over other party member's yelling at him not to even causing the cleric to attack him to try and stop him.

He went to jail because the cleric told his order what dwarf did and I told my guild.

He was upset that his character was arrested for murder. As a player he had every right to play his character the way he wants but he also needs to accept the consequences of his actions.

The reason she had him do a wisdom roll was not to stop him from destroying the statues but to see if he would really do so behind his party's back. And when he choose to do it she let him.

I am all for role playing. But it is important to remember it is a game being played and you are not playing it alone.
 

My DM likes to give funky things as treasure instead of just dropping a ton of gold or gems in the game. Part of her fun is coming up with some strange items.
I like your referee already.
So do you think the fair thing would be to find a way to give us more treasure?
Hell no.

Adventurers reap what they sow. The dwarf owes the rest of the party restitution, not the referee.
 

This way of approaching the game is all fairly foreign to me. I'm used to the GM having the primary responsibility for presenting the gameworld, but the players having the primary responsibility for interpreting it in moral/political terms

So "the DM went out of her way to ensure that the player understood the norms" is foreign to you? IMHO, the norms of the game world are part of the presentation of that world.

"She informed the players that the items were not evil" is foreign to you? Again, this is part of the presentation of the milieu, in a game where "evil" has an actual, concrete, detectable meaning.

Or is it "She gave the player the option to make a Wisdom save before taking his action (which, in any group I've ever been in, means you're doing something you might want to reconsider)" that is foreign to you? One assumes that the Wisdom save doesn't mean that the PC cannot take the action suggested, but merely that the GM will give the player additional information, including, possibly, some insight into the consequences of the suggested action.

If a player announces that his character attempts to leap a 200-foot deep chasm 200-feet across, do you just say "Roll a jump check" and shake your head, or do you first make certain that the player understands that the character cannot make the jump, and that you are playing for "keepsies"?

Interesting.

Especially in light of your comment upthread to the effect that it was the GM's fault due to failing to communicate the campaign norms, which those items you quoted were in response to.


RC
 
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