Should this be fixed

I think we are talking at cross purposes.

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the PCs need to play smart. Getting in trouble with the law and being chased by the local law is not necessarily shutting the PC down.

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Just like in combat doing stupid things can get your PC killed doing stupid things in the social settings can get your PC in trouble.

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The GM in this would not be playing the NPCs correctly if he just ignored what you did because hey you are the PCs you always get a get out of trouble card.
I don't know if we are talking at cross purposes. We are talking about quite different ways of approaching an RPG.

I'm not sure how much your notion of "playing smart" overlaps with my notion of "expedience". I think there is probably at least some overlap. I quite like a game that makes non-expedient play viable. A trivial example - in the real world, it is never smart to use archery against a tank. But in the world of 4-colour comics it can be, if you are Hawkeye or Green Arrow. I like a fantasy RPG that supports at least that much deviation from "playing smart".

Being chased by the law is certainly not, per se, shutting the PCs down. But there are any number of ways a GM can both set up and resolve such a situation. Depending on whether the GM is driven mostly by regard to his/her sense of ingame causal logic, or mostly by regard to what s/he thinks would make for a fun or genre-consistent plotline, or mostly by regard to what s/he thinks will most enliven the thematic concerns her players want to deal with, a very different game will result.

As to getting killed in combat for doing stupid things - in my previous campaign, which ran for a little over 10 years, one PC died, very early in the campaign. In my current campaign, three PCs have died. In one case the party suffered a "TPK" at the hands of a cursed haunting set up by some goblins. A subsequent email conversation established that all but one of the players wanted to keep going with the same PC, and so the next session began with the party all captured by the goblins after being defeated by the haunting, except for the half-elf who was absent, presumed dead (and they could smell something dubious roasting on the goblin's fire), and imprisoned with a drow they didn't recognise (the new PC). In the case of the two other PC deaths, a quick discussion with the player again established a desire for the PC to keep going, and reasons for the Raven Queen to send the PC back into the land of the living (with various sorts of plot and thematic consequences) were quickly worked out.

So I don't disagree that social conflict should have just as much at stake as combat. But I don't think of it in terms of PCs getting killed or getting into trouble. I think of it in terms of leading to results that drive the game forward.

I don't buy the PCs are special BS and therefore nothing bad ever happens to them because they are the PCs. I would find playing in a game where no matter what actions the PC takes it never results in anything but positive outcomes to be boring and trite and would leave me feeling very unsatisified.
I think the expereince of play should always be positive for the players. They are playing to enjoy themselves.

Given that I play a game that is a longrunning campaign with a single PC per player, that positive experience for the players means that they have to be pretty reliably able to engage the game (and hence the gameworld) via their PCs.

The question of whether or not bad things happen to the PCs is orthogonal to that. Getting beaten to a pulp by a demon (as described upthread) is a bad thing. Having your newly acquired dwarven followers squashed by a behemoth is a bad thing (at least sort of, even if you also take a small degree of pleasure in some of them getting their comeuppance). Feeling you have no real choice but to join your companion in betraying your city is a bad thing (even if you can rationalise it away with a "greater good" argument).

But all these bad things happening to PCs weren't bad things for the players of those PCs, because they were occurring in a context where the player was enjoying the RPGing experience, because being able to use the PC to engage the gameworld in a thematically relevant/expressive manner.

EDIT: I like a game in which adversity for the PC is not per se adversity for the player. This requires the GM to frame the adversity for the PC in a certain sort of way.
 
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How about the morality of the PCs? Isn't that really what you're getting at?

No, not really. That's not the point of the campaign. The point of the campaign is exploring the issues surrounding terrorism - both moral and ethical. The morality of the individual PC's would help drive that exploration, but, by and large wouldn't really be the focus.

For me, in this specific campaign, I'd be much more interested in the events leading up to the terrorist act - what drives the character? What makes a regular guy off the street go to such extremes? And then look at the fallout from the terrorist act - how does this affect the PC's on a personal level? How do the people that the PC's care about react?

The actual terrorist act is mostly irrelavent in this style of play. Determining the plan of action, carrying it out, that sort of thing, is pretty much incidental. You cannot explore the theme of terrorism without a terrorist act occurring, much like you cannot have a murder mystery without someone stopping breathing at some point in the narrative.

So, issues like the police searching for the PC's, being shot while trying to escape custody, that sort of thing, aren't really moving towards the point of the game. Sure, these are entirely realistic, believable results of the action in the game. But, they don't really speak to why the game is being played in the first place.

Pemerton - I'm curious. What theme do you think was being explored by the dwarf player. Sure, he's bringing his backstory into the game (with your help) in an interesting way. But, what theme is in play here? I like your paladin example much, much better.

In the paladin example, if you're playing in an events based campaign where believability is the primary concern, then the demon should just eat the paladin. That's probably the most likely outcome. The player would know that and would thus, not accept getting a beating from the demon, particularly if he knows that doing so will result in the neighbouring town getting eaten as well.

But, in a thematic game, that isn't the goal. The goal is to explore the theme, in this case some sort of redemption. Killing the paladin or punishing his behavior by allowing his play to theme result in a further downward spiral, becomes problematic.

JamesonCourage said:
You know what's interesting about that? I've seen maybe four to five episodes of the show (season 2? It was a few years ago) because one of my close friends (who I game with) was pretty into it. I couldn't put my finger on it, but I was really put-off by it. I stopped watching it.

Then again, I love things like the Justice League show, and that's often littered with similar situations. All superhero material is. To that end, I guess I see it as a different genre, and accept it as story-oriented (maybe that's why I'm okay with M&M being played that way).

Anyways, I had a good discussion. Thanks

Oh, totally agree here. Genre plays a HUGE aspect here for me. I don't do this sort of thing in D&D because I find D&D just isn't really geared for this kind of play. It's too event based for me. If I am going to do this sort of thing, there are much, much better tools in the box for getting the job done.
 

A later thought.

I think this sidebar discussion over different play styles is a stellar example of what can happen at a table when play styles aren't made really clear at the outset of the game.

If JamesonCourage sat down for one of my thematic games, not knowing what the game was about, I'm thinking he'd be pretty unhappy (and probably out the door pdq). The same way that if I sit down at a real events based game like JamesonCourage is talking about, and I start playing it as a thematic game. We might be playing the same system, but, we are really not playing the same game.

Wheeling this back around to Elf Witch, I have no idea if that's what happened at that table. It might be - in which case, no one at the table was being a jerk, they were just working from very, very different assumptions. Making sure everyone is on the same page style wise, and that they stay on the same page, makes for much better games in the long run.
 

No, not really. That's not the point of the campaign. The point of the campaign is exploring the issues surrounding terrorism - both moral and ethical. The morality of the individual PC's would help drive that exploration, but, by and large wouldn't really be the focus.

For me, in this specific campaign, I'd be much more interested in the events leading up to the terrorist act - what drives the character? What makes a regular guy off the street go to such extremes? And then look at the fallout from the terrorist act - how does this affect the PC's on a personal level? How do the people that the PC's care about react?

That sounds an awful lot like 1) you really are exploring the PC's morality if you're looking into what drives the character and 2) by describing terrorism as extreme and then planning on presenting reactions to the terrorist act, aren't you doing exactly what you say we shouldn't be doing by defining terrorism as evil? Won't the players get the exact same impression as if they had already been told that terrorism, in the game world's objective morality, is evil? I'm not seeing a significant difference.

As far as how the fallout of the act affects the PCs on a personal level, you can get that with the act being objectively defined as evil as well as without that being done. So again, I'm not seeing a significant difference.
 

I don't know if we are talking at cross purposes. We are talking about quite different ways of approaching an RPG.

I'm not sure how much your notion of "playing smart" overlaps with my notion of "expedience". I think there is probably at least some overlap. I quite like a game that makes non-expedient play viable. A trivial example - in the real world, it is never smart to use archery against a tank. But in the world of 4-colour comics it can be, if you are Hawkeye or Green Arrow. I like a fantasy RPG that supports at least that much deviation from "playing smart".

Being chased by the law is certainly not, per se, shutting the PCs down. But there are any number of ways a GM can both set up and resolve such a situation. Depending on whether the GM is driven mostly by regard to his/her sense of ingame causal logic, or mostly by regard to what s/he thinks would make for a fun or genre-consistent plotline, or mostly by regard to what s/he thinks will most enliven the thematic concerns her players want to deal with, a very different game will result.

As to getting killed in combat for doing stupid things - in my previous campaign, which ran for a little over 10 years, one PC died, very early in the campaign. In my current campaign, three PCs have died. In one case the party suffered a "TPK" at the hands of a cursed haunting set up by some goblins. A subsequent email conversation established that all but one of the players wanted to keep going with the same PC, and so the next session began with the party all captured by the goblins after being defeated by the haunting, except for the half-elf who was absent, presumed dead (and they could smell something dubious roasting on the goblin's fire), and imprisoned with a drow they didn't recognise (the new PC). In the case of the two other PC deaths, a quick discussion with the player again established a desire for the PC to keep going, and reasons for the Raven Queen to send the PC back into the land of the living (with various sorts of plot and thematic consequences) were quickly worked out.

So I don't disagree that social conflict should have just as much at stake as combat. But I don't think of it in terms of PCs getting killed or getting into trouble. I think of it in terms of leading to results that drive the game forward.

I think the expereince of play should always be positive for the players. They are playing to enjoy themselves.

Given that I play a game that is a longrunning campaign with a single PC per player, that positive experience for the players means that they have to be pretty reliably able to engage the game (and hence the gameworld) via their PCs.

The question of whether or not bad things happen to the PCs is orthogonal to that. Getting beaten to a pulp by a demon (as described upthread) is a bad thing. Having your newly acquired dwarven followers squashed by a behemoth is a bad thing (at least sort of, even if you also take a small degree of pleasure in some of them getting their comeuppance). Feeling you have no real choice but to join your companion in betraying your city is a bad thing (even if you can rationalise it away with a "greater good" argument).

But all these bad things happening to PCs weren't bad things for the players of those PCs, because they were occurring in a context where the player was enjoying the RPGing experience, because being able to use the PC to engage the gameworld in a thematically relevant/expressive manner.

EDIT: I like a game in which adversity for the PC is not per se adversity for the player. This requires the GM to frame the adversity for the PC in a certain sort of way.

No I don't consider expedience and playing smart to be the same thing at all.

While sometimes being expedient is playing smart it not always true.

Killing the necromancer in front of a member of his guild and a cleric of a lawful god was expedient it got the job done but it was really dumb. The smart thing would have been to sneak back and do the deed.

Personally I think sneaking back and destroying the skeletons could have been smart if he had not just stood there waiting for us and letting us know he did it.

I also like RPGs to allow cinematic things like a halfling about to be burned to death by a dragon throwing pepper in its nose and the DM not bothering to roll because the idea was so good and the halfling escape.

I don't think it is good DMing to just throw the law at the PCs and throw them in jail if the PCs have been cleaver and worked hard to cover their tracks. It should never just be fait accompli. My DM in the situation we had used throwing the dwarf in jail to further and the plot. We were blackmailed into investigating weird things in a mine which in turn led us to the main bad guys of the story.

We have only had one PC death in three years of play. And that death was really caused by the player doing something really stupid.

The game should always be about what is fun for everyone at the table including the DM. And I never play in a game for very long if there is adversarial play at the table directed at the players and not the PCs.

There is a big difference between kicking a PC out of the party for pissing off his fellow PCs and kicking a player out. Something that I have not seen happen at a table in years.

If I play a paladin I don't have any issue with losing abilities if I break my code. So a DM can throw moral dilemmas at me give me bad and worse choices and I will happily role play them out. But if a player hates that then the DM should not do it. It is all about knowing what your players enjoy.
 

The point of the campaign is exploring the issues surrounding terrorism - both moral and ethical.

<snip>

The actual terrorist act is mostly irrelavent in this style of play. Determining the plan of action, carrying it out, that sort of thing, is pretty much incidental. You cannot explore the theme of terrorism without a terrorist act occurring, much like you cannot have a murder mystery without someone stopping breathing at some point in the narrative.

So, issues like the police searching for the PC's, being shot while trying to escape custody, that sort of thing, aren't really moving towards the point of the game.
Very good stuff.

That sounds an awful lot like 1) you really are exploring the PC's morality if you're looking into what drives the character
Without more information, it's hard to tell - so at a minimum, not necessarily.

For example, in The Human Factor Graham Greene explores the morality of the protagonist, but that is not the point of the story - it's not primarily a character study. The exploration of the morality of the protagonist is a means to an authorial end, of generating a certain sort of reflection on political commitment and political hope.

Another example might be American Psycho - I've not read the book, only seen the movie, but while the work is primarily in the form of a character study, that isn't what it's about - or, rather, by engaging in a study of this particular character, more general thematic concerns are brought into play.

I assume that this is the sort of thing that Hussar is envisaging in his terrorism game.

More generally - exploration is not at odds with thematic play - and some sort of exploration of the shared imaginative space is central to RPGing - but the question is whether exploration is an end in itself.

In the paladin example, if you're playing in an events based campaign where believability is the primary concern, then the demon should just eat the paladin. That's probably the most likely outcome.
I just wanted to point out here (and I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said, just making a more general point about this style of RPGing) that I still, as GM, came up with a rationale for the demon to walk away - namely, that it had become bored toying with a paladin who didn't fight back.

This is why I think that language like "preserving ingame believability" or "the players just being able to chang things to suit their PCs on a whim" are not very helpful. The gameworld - which, to work, has to be believable according to whatever constraints the participants share - is the medium through which play is taking place. It's about what the GM (and players) have principal regard to in establishing and responding to the ingame situation.

Two concluding thoughts on this point.

First, most people are pretty forgiving of unlikelihoods and contrivances occurring in other fictions - what are the odds that Gandalf breaks free of Saruman just in time to save Frodo at the river crossing? not to mention LotR being, among other things, one big retcon of The Hobbit - and I don't see why it has to be any different for an RPG.

Second, most RPG worlds are utterly absurd when considered from the point of view of history or sociology. But people forgive them because either (i) they're ignorant of history and sociology, or (ii) they've become accustomed to certain genre conventions. Both sorts of accommodation strategies can also be pursued in preserving verisimilitude in a theme-focused game.

What theme do you think was being explored by the dwarf player. Sure, he's bringing his backstory into the game (with your help) in an interesting way. But, what theme is in play here?
Revenge (mostly of the nerdish variety!). And the related theme of how a lowly person, having now acquired power and status, should respond to those who used to be on top. There are even echoes of the X-Men "protecting a world that hates and fears them" - another related theme - especially once the dwarf PC has his newfound underlings with him in the subsequent fight.

In his discussion of narrativist play, Ron Edwards says:

Story Now requires that at least one engaging issue or problematic feature of human existence be addressed in the process of role-playing. "Address" means:

*Establishing the issue's Explorative expressions in the game-world, "fixing" them into imaginary place.

*Developing the issue as a source of continued conflict, perhaps changing any number of things about it, such as which side is being taken by a given character, or providing more depth to why the antagonistic side of the issue exists at all.

*Resolving the issue through the decisions of the players of the protagonists, as well as various features and constraints of the circumstances. . .

How is this done, actually, in play? It relies on the concept of something called Premise and its relationship to an emergent theme.

I already snuck Premise past you: it's that "problematic issue" I mentioned. . .

A protagonist is not "some guy," but rather "the guy who thinks THIS, and does something accordingly when he encounters adversity." Stories are not created by running some kind of linear-cause program, but rather are brutally judgmental statements upon the THIS, as an idea or a way of being. That judgment is enacted or exemplified in the resolution of the conflict, and a conviction that is proved to us [by the author], constitutes theme. Even if we (the audience) disagree with it, we at least must have been moved to do so at an emotional level.

Narrativist role-playing is defined by the people involved placing their direct creative attention toward Premise and toward birthing its child, theme. It sounds simple, and in many ways it is. The real variable is the emotional connection that everyone at the table makes when a player-character does something. If that emotional connection is identifiable as a Premise, and if that connection is nurtured and developed through the real-people interactions, then Narrativist play is under way. . .

The key to Narrativist Premises is that they are moral or ethical questions that engage the players' interest. The "answer" to this Premise (Theme) is produced via play and the decisions of the participants, not by pre-planning. . .

That bit about moral and ethical content is merely one of those personalized clincher-phrasings that some people find helpful. It helps to distinguish a Premise from "my guy fought a dragon, so that's a conflict, so that's a Premise" thinking. However, if these terms bug you, then say, "problematic human issue" instead. . .

Premise must pose a question to the real people, creator and audience alike. The fictional character's belief in something like "Freedom is worth any price" is already an implicit question: "Is it really? Even when [insert Situation]?" Otherwise it will fail to engage anyone. . .

Given that theme arises during Narrativist play, what does it look like . . . ? This breaks down into three independent issues . . .

1. The potential for personal risk and disclosure among the real people involved. . . [Some] games are, for lack of a better word, "lighter" or perhaps more whimsical - they do raise issues and may include extreme content, but play-decisions tend to be less self-revealing. . .

2. The depth and profundity of the resulting themes. . .

3. The humorous content. . . Is the humor acting to bring participants' emotions closer to the Premise, or to distance them?​

Edwards also cites Robin Laws in Over the Edge:

Instead, [the GM] should be seeking ways to challenge PCs, to use plot development to highlight aspects of their character, in hopes of being challenged in return. . . For years, role-players have been simulating fictional narratives the way wargamers recreate historical military engagements. They've been making spontaneous, democratized art for their own consumption, even if they haven't seen it in those terms. Making the artistry conscious is a liberating act, making it easier to emulate the classic tales that inspire us.​

And he contrasts this sort of play with pastiche, by which he means simply exploring someone else's story:

What happens when you want a story but don't want to play with Story Now? Then the story becomes a feature of Exploration with the process of play being devoted to how to make it happen as expected. The participation of more than one person in the process is usually a matter of providing improvisational additions to be filtered through the primary story-person's judgment, or of providing extensive Color to the story. Under these circumstances, the typical result is pastiche: a story which recapitulates an already-existing story's theme, with many explicit references to that story.​

I think that pastiche is the output of a lot of module play, and especially adventure path play. The basic outcome is known in advance ("Five heroes stopped Kyuss" or "Three heroes just managed to escape - or, perhaps, drew their last breath - in the jungle shrine of Tamoachan") with colour and (thematically) minor improvisations happening along the way. (The improvisations may be tactically very important - the fact that classic D&D tactics involve engaging the fiction directly in a way that 4e tactics don't is, in my view, one reason why those who are mostly used to simulationist or simulationist-heavy gamist play in D&D find it hard to find the roleplaying in 4e.)

I think Edwards is right to be wary about the phrase "moral or ethical", because this underdescribes the range of evaluative questions, or questions that have evaluative implications, that can be addressed. I think even "problematic human issue" is a bit narrow - nearly any question of human motivation or behaviour can be made the thematic subject of a fiction, given that for a human to act is for a human to implicitly express a valuation of the goal at which s/he aims. I think Edwards' points (1), (2) and (3) are better at signalling the open-ended scope of thematic play - if it can be engaged or expressed via fiction, then (in principle) it can be engaged or expressed via RPGing.

So to go back to my dwarf example: the question is, How should one act having once been law and now being high? Should one indulge former tormentors, or get back at them? (And if the latter, how hard?) What sort of responsibility does one now have for them? And is it relevant that, if such responsibilities existed, they shirked them in relation to you? The player, in the way he had his PC act, expressed some views on this. To which I, having set up the situation, then had to respond - like Laws says, set up scenes that challenge the PCs (and their players) and be challenged in return!

The issue of depth and humour also comes in here. For example, I could make things harder for the player of the dwarf by letting him find out that he and his family would have been killed back in Dwarfhome but for one of his tormentors stopping a particular goblin attack - ie by raising a doubt that the tormentors really did shirk their responsibilities. This would increase the depth - because responsibilities and loyalty are now being conceived not purely in terms of interpersonal relations, but other social consequences of one's actions. It would shift the tone from Hogan's Heroes, past The Great Escape, and somewhere closer to (although not at) Full Metal Jacket. It would also probably kill the humour. For this player, in this campaign, with this particular issue, I don't think that I'll do that. (Where I'm gradually building up to something a bit more serious for this player is with the relationship, in my campaign, between the minotarus and the dwarves - the dwarves were servants of the minotaurs, and much of the culture of which they're justly proud was learned from the minotaurs. Bits and pieces of this have come out, but I'm still working out how excalty I'll bring it to fruition - maybe some sort of conflict where authenticity to self or allies requires repudiating minotaur-dom, which is also to repudiate dwarfdom.)

So anyway, there's the premise(s). And there was an emotional engagement by the players at the table - not a very deep or self-revealing one, of course, given the fictional content.

Sorry for the too-long reply, but I really think that there is sometimes too much of a notion of narrativist or thematic play having to be highbrow or profound. This is no more true of RPGs than other fiction. In the cop show with romantic undertones genre, for example, I think Castle cleans the floor with Bones from the perspective of plotting, scripting and a lively engagement with its thematic material. And Almodovar's films show that extremely deep material can be dealt with in a superficially light-hearted way involving absurd situations. Not that my game is in Almodovar's league - very occasionally it might produce fiction as good as Castle! (I think RPGs, as tolerable fiction, benefit hugely from the author=audience factor.)
 
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Going back to the original post, I'm not at all sure that anything Edwards has to say is relevant.

So, maybe the dwarf's player would prefer a different style of campaign play? Is it a more popular style? No. Would changing to that style be likely to make the GM better for her group as a whole? No.

There is a reason that context-choice-consequence is more popular than "choose your context then choose your consequence; everyone partakes of the GM's role to adjudicate context and consequence". Moreover, if the outcome of an adventure in context-choice-consequence play is known in advance, as you suggest, then you have serious problems. In a module - or any adventure, if you know the outcome, you are no longer playing context-choice-consequence, and it should not surprise anyone that the results, by removing meaning from choice, are likely to be unsatisfying. I get the strong impression that you fail to understand classic play.....as I am sure you feel I fail to understand narrativist play.

When Ron Edwards creates a game that satisfies as many people as Gary Gygax's, Monte Cook's, or Mike Mearls' games do, then it will be relevant to bring him into the "What should I do?" question. Until then, "Try doing this relatively unpopular thing that I happen to like" is pretty bad advice.

IMHO, at least. YMMV.

I'm pretty sure I -- and, IME, most players -- would greatly enjoy the game described in the OP, and would suggest caution in changing it.


RC
 
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Going back to the original post, I'm not at all sure that anything Edwards has to say is relevant.
I think it's relevant to answering Hussar's question to me, which is what I was trying to do.

When Ron Edwards creates a game that satisfies as many people as Gary Gygax's, Monte Cook's, or Mike Mearls' games do, then it will be relevant to bring him into the "What should I do?" question. Until then, "Try doing this relatively unpopular thing that I happen to like" is pretty bad advice.
My post wasn't really giving anyone advice, other than perhaps advising Hussar to be more liberal in his appreciation of the themes that can be addressed in narrativist play - and even then, I'm sure that Hussar is more than capable of RPing without needing my advice!
 

I think it's relevant to answering Hussar's question to me, which is what I was trying to do.

Fair enough.

But, as the OP's GM is apparently actually reading this thread, I reiterate: Going back to the original post, I'm not at all sure that anything Edwards has to say is relevant.

So, maybe the dwarf's player would prefer a different style of campaign play? Is it a more popular style? No. Would changing to that style be likely to make the GM better for her group as a whole? No.

I would think long and hard before undoing the consequences of player choices.


RC
 

There is a reason that context-choice-consequence is more popular than "choose your context then choose your consequence; everyone partakes of the GM's role to adjudicate context and consequence".

That's not how it works; it's very much about context-choice-consequence. Context highlights "problematic feature of human existence", the choices the players care about deal with those issues, and thus consequences will be in response to those choices.

Moreover, if the outcome of an adventure in context-choice-consequence play is known in advance, as you suggest, then you have serious problems.

1. The PCs will succeed in clearing out the Caves of Chaos, making the area safe for human habitation.

2. Do the monsters in the Caves of Chaos have the right to self-government (or even life!), given that these are "the Borderlands", civilization is encroaching on their territory, and that they engage in some pretty barbarous acts?
 

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