Planescape

[I'm A Banana]

Looked interesting, but also alignment-restrictive.

Interestingly, it was Planescape that made me finally OK with the alignment system of D&D and the Great Wheel cosmology. It went to great lengths to make sure that, for instance, just because you were Lawful Good didn't mean you weren't an antagonist, and it actually made you think about what that meant -- to believe that Order and Altruism were the best way for you to live, and perhaps for everyone to live.

I suspect the former.

Would have to be. PF can't release an "official" Planescape supplement, because Planescape belongs to WotC. BUT, I am under the impression that Pathfinder hired a Planescape guru to helm their planar stuff, so it might be awesome anyway.

We've seen no alignment problems yet in our one session, and while some of the races (modrons) seem horribly restrictive, and others don't make sense (githzerai can't be lawful, so no monks?) I'm pretty sure it's the DM writing 2e flavor onto Planescape mechanics. (Eg house rules, not a setting problem. There were no monks in 2e.)

Alignment-wise, you might want to look at it this way:

Modrons have to be Lawful because they are made of law. Order is the foundation for their existence. Philosophy makes up their biology (such as it is). The ordered thoughts of the multiverse are what give them flesh and blood. For a modron not to be lawful would be like for you not to be Carbon-based. It's literally an alien way of being.

Githzerai can't be lawful, because the race's culture values personal freedom as one of the highest ideals you can aspire to. To be self-determined, to be a slave to no one, to be free to think and act as you please...these are core Githzerai values. One could imagine a Lawful githzerai like one might imagine a Good Mind Flayer. Okay, maybe it could happen, but it's running counter to the entire core value of the rest of the race.

That said, when I run PS4e, I'm not going to have the characters pick an alignment. I'm going to have them act, and then place an alignment on their actions over time. Thus, alignment will be an emergent feature of gameplay and of your character's philosophy, rather than a core choice that you make.

We started at 1st-level (is that even appropriate for the setting) and so far have fought hobgoblins and gnolls. It doesn't really feel like Planescape yet.

1st level is appropriate for the setting -- one of Planescape's big additions was the creation of places for low-level adventurers and "normal folks" to live a daily life on the planes. But upper planes and Sigil itself tend to be the stomping grounds -- planes that aren't threats in and of themselves.

And I dunno why your DM is pitching hobogoblins and gnolls at you. Sounds like maybe you could get a better feel for the setting if he tossed you out onto the great wheel and engaged you with some demons or something, at least for your first adventure or two. But maybe it's in the mix, coming up.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Alignment-wise, you might want to look at it this way:

Modrons have to be Lawful because they are made of law.

I know about Modrons from Manual of the Planes. Unlike githzerai, I considered the restrictions on modrons to be horribly restrictive because of these:

Rogue Modron always respond to situations in a predictable fashion, and roll their initiative once per level.

Rogue Modron players must state one preset action per level, based on external stimuli - a condition upon wich the modron has encountered and will always respond the same. For example, every time a foe draws a weapon, a certain modron might instantly attack. This reaction occurs immediately regardless of whether or not the modron has already acted. Initiative is considered immediate.

Rogue Modron do not react well to surprise situations. When surprised, Rogue Modron remain flat-footed for twice as long as normal. (This latter point isn't so bad, compared to the above two.)

Modrons being lawful don't bother me, but having those kinds of restrictions do. I wonder where those rules are from; I hope not PS3e!

Githzerai can't be lawful, because the race's culture values personal freedom as one of the highest ideals you can aspire to. To be self-determined, to be a slave to no one, to be free to think and act as you please...these are core Githzerai values. One could imagine a Lawful githzerai like one might imagine a Good Mind Flayer. Okay, maybe it could happen, but it's running counter to the entire core value of the rest of the race.

In MotP 3e, some githzerai lived in monasteries where the chaos-dominant trait of the plane was canceled. I'm not sure how long githzerai = monk have been around, but I'm disappointed my character (a ranger) can't shoot at a githzerai monk and see his shots get deflected.

Again, this isn't really ragging on the setting. I'm pretty sure PS3e supported githzerai monks.

1st level is appropriate for the setting -- one of Planescape's big additions was the creation of places for low-level adventurers and "normal folks" to live a daily life on the planes. But upper planes and Sigil itself tend to be the stomping grounds -- planes that aren't threats in and of themselves.

And I dunno why your DM is pitching hobogoblins and gnolls at you. Sounds like maybe you could get a better feel for the setting if he tossed you out onto the great wheel and engaged you with some demons or something, at least for your first adventure or two. But maybe it's in the mix, coming up.

Our characters are currently in the Outlands, but we're pretty far from Sigil at the moment. I don't know what's coming up next. The DM promised the next encounters would be harder, as we've basically stomped on everything we've fought so far.

 

[I'm A Banana]

know about Modrons from Manual of the Planes. Unlike githzerai, I considered the restrictions on modrons to be horribly restrictive because of these:

Rogue Modron always respond to situations in a predictable fashion, and roll their initiative once per level.

Rogue Modron players must state one preset action per level, based on external stimuli - a condition upon wich the modron has encountered and will always respond the same. For example, every time a foe draws a weapon, a certain modron might instantly attack. This reaction occurs immediately regardless of whether or not the modron has already acted. Initiative is considered immediate.

Rogue Modron do not react well to surprise situations. When surprised, Rogue Modron remain flat-footed for twice as long as normal. (This latter point isn't so bad, compared to the above two.)

This seems to be an interpretation of 2e's rules. Though the rogue modron was never supposed to be a very "flexible" character. I'd probably keep some version of the "one initiative" rule (though I'd probably make it one initiative roll per day, rather than per level), but leave the other stuff up to RP.

In MotP 3e, some githzerai lived in monasteries where the chaos-dominant trait of the plane was canceled. I'm not sure how long githzerai = monk have been around, but I'm disappointed my character (a ranger) can't shoot at a githzerai monk and see his shots get deflected.

Yeah, this, again, seems to be the DM interpreting 2e rules (where Githzerai were CN all the time). I'm fond of the idea of githzerai monks, myself, though.

Our characters are currently in the Outlands, but we're pretty far from Sigil at the moment. I don't know what's coming up next. The DM promised the next encounters would be harder, as we've basically stomped on everything we've fought so far.

Yeah, the Outlands were basically a place where the DM could run adventures "like a normal campaign," more or less. So hopefully you'll get into the real stuff soon!

 

[Relique du Madde]

iyou could visit the Gods, give the finger to demons...then run away..

In one game my character, a tinker gnome, gave the finger to Zeus (by incessantly rambling when Zeus told him to get to the point and by continually buzzing him while flying his glitter-gear-autorotic-saw-horse mk I)... That scene didn't end well.

 

[Mephos]

In one game my character, a tinker gnome, gave the finger to Zeus (by incessantly rambling when Zeus told him to get to the point and by continually buzzing him while flying his glitter-gear-autorotic-saw-horse mk I)... That scene didn't end well.

hehe..see this is the type of stuff i was talking about

/goes off to find my PS materials now

 

[TarionzCousin]

I love Planescape. I have run 4 campaigns in it, two in 2E, one in 3E, and a short one in 4E. I really like the idea of Sigil as neutral ground populated by "Philosophers with clubs."

It's always pre-Faction War for me.

 

[Shemeska]

I got hold of the 2e Planescape material shortly after getting into the game with 3e and the 3e MotP. Brilliant material, and IMO we've seen precious little approach the same level of it in terms of vision and evocativeness since then.

It heavily influenced my gaming preferences, and even now it filters through into my own work now in some ways. I've actually had the chance to work on a few of the same Paizo projects as Colin McComb who did a lot of 2e Planescape stuff for TSR.

 

[Shemeska]

In MotP 3e, some githzerai lived in monasteries where the chaos-dominant trait of the plane was canceled. I'm not sure how long githzerai = monk have been around, but I'm disappointed my character (a ranger) can't shoot at a githzerai monk and see his shots get deflected.

The githzerai as monks thing was introduced in some WotC 3e stuff, and it seemed to suggest that most or all githzerai lived in monasteries in Limbo. However in the 2e material it went out of the way to note that the monastics were actually on the fringe of githzerai society, while most of their kind lived in cities such as Shra'kat'lor under the rule of Zaerith Menyar Ag-Gith the githzerai wizard king. Generally speaking if you didn't agree with him, you got politically isolated and it was in everyone's best interest if you went off and joined a monastery and stayed out of public affairs.

Somehow this turned into most githzerai are monks in 3e. I dunno.

 

[TarionzCousin]

The videogame Planescape: Torment still holds up as some of the best RPG game writing ever. The dialogue is interesting and fun. Morte is a great NPC.

 

[Relique du Madde]

The videogame Planescape: Torment still holds up as some of the best RPG game writing ever. The dialogue is interesting and fun. Morte is a great NPC.

Poor Morte. :'(

Spoiler

I never figured out how to save him from the pillar of skulls