Any good morale systems for 3.x/Pathfinder?

[NewJeffCT]

Problem with any morale system in 3.X is that enemies are worth far too much XP NOT to fight to the last HP. Previous editions had lower XP awards per creature and generally higher numbers of creatures, so "Free XP" of a few foes fleeing while it could still provide a chance of consuming some resources was not as bad. With 3E, almost every creature's actions is literally worth 100's of XP. Throwing those actions away on running is giving the players free XP.

To me, if you killed the monster(s), or they run away, the players get the same XP for "winning" the encounter.

So, sometimes, the players in my last 3.5E campaign would get XP for defeating a foe multiple times. They had an re-occurring foe that they fought at level 3, level 4, level 9, level 12 and level 16 for the last time...each time, they got XP for fighting her & her allies.

 

[frankthedm]

To me, if you killed the monster(s), or they run away, the players get the same XP for "winning" the encounter.

That's is the way it is in 3X and that's why tacking on an after the fact morale system creates the problem of giving out free XP.

 

[Water Bob]

Problem with any morale system in 3.X is that enemies are worth far too much XP NOT to fight to the last HP.

One of the many things I love about the d20 Conan RPG is that XP awards are totally story driven. The GM doesn't mess with formulas, challenge ratings, or complicated monster XP awards. All XP is given based on the character's contribution to the story--totally based on the GM's opinion.

One of the many perks of the system is that players aren't encouraged to fight things just to get the XP.







@OP I figure d20's morale system is a simple WIL saving throw. Set the DC at whatever is appropriate.

For example, the PC party is fighting 6 goblins and 3 are slaughtered very quickly. The GM determines that these are "normal" goblins with unsteady morale ratings. They will bolt, under the circumstances, unless they make a DC 15 WILL save.

Simple, simple. And, you don'd need new rules.

 

[NewJeffCT]

That's is the way it is in 3X and that's why tacking on an after the fact morale system creates the problem of giving out free XP.

I don't see how it's free XP in 3.5E? The monster has been defeated if it runs away or it's killed. Or, if 5 goblins run away and 5 are killed, the players get XP for defeating 10 goblins.

 

[Cyberzombie]

Certain powers and effects in 4e work against a bloodied target or work better against such a target. Some monsters have special attacks or abilities that are triggered when they are bloodied.

That makes sense. Thanks again.

New Powers should have morale effects too, whatever their source be it character, magic item, location, etc.

Clerics are a shoo in for this and other divine-oriented classes. Turning Undead is a kind of inducement of morale checks in a way anyways.

Good point. Pathfinder has Turn Undead as a feat; it could open up morale attacks on undead. I'll have to take a look at that again. My party's cleric doesn't have it so I don't remember exactly how it works.

Problem with any morale system in 3.X is that enemies are worth far too much XP NOT to fight to the last HP. Previous editions had lower XP awards per creature and generally higher numbers of creatures, so "Free XP" of a few foes fleeing while it could still provide a chance of consuming some resources was not as bad. With 3E, almost every creature's actions is literally worth 100's of XP. Throwing those actions away on running is giving the players free XP.

Could you clarify this? I really don't understand your point. I regularly knock the xp award down for encounters that turn out to easy, and raise it for more difficult ones. If you scare off 3/4 of the goblins, the encounter was easier than expected, so I'd give less xp. I wouldn't take it all away, since the PCs won, but I'd knock it down a challenge rating.

I might not use bloodied - I might use when the monsters' first ally is dropped (goblin is thinking, "they just killed Gornok, but have lost nobody - we can't win, I better flee!!!")

Also, a bloodied foe might stick to the combat if they think they have a good chance of winning ("The killed Gornok and Borq, but we just killed the elf and the robed human...only 2 of them remain, while there are six, um, seven, um, lots of us")

Well, that's why I want a random roll. Sometimes getting hurt will make you run, sometimes your comrades falling will make you run, sometimes you'll just stay to the end.

@OP I figure d20's morale system is a simple WIL saving throw. Set the DC at whatever is appropriate.

For example, the PC party is fighting 6 goblins and 3 are slaughtered very quickly. The GM determines that these are "normal" goblins with unsteady morale ratings. They will bolt, under the circumstances, unless they make a DC 15 WILL save.

Simple, simple. And, you don'd need new rules.

Yeah, it's simple, but it doesn't work. The librarian with the high WIL save will stand before a foe that sends the barbarian with the low WIL save running.

 

[Vespucci]

Problem with any morale system in 3.X is that enemies are worth far too much XP NOT to fight to the last HP. Previous editions had lower XP awards per creature and generally higher numbers of creatures, so "Free XP" of a few foes fleeing while it could still provide a chance of consuming some resources was not as bad. With 3E, almost every creature's actions is literally worth 100's of XP. Throwing those actions away on running is giving the players free XP.

This is an interesting insight. You're quite right: the reward system is based on having to battle away until the monsters run out of hp altogether. This does suggest a sly morale system.

When a monster runs out of hp, they've run out of fight. Redefine 0 and less hp as "defeated". The problem then resolves into determining the effects of defeat. A table and modified die roll is traditional, with some results becoming others depending on situation. It seems to me that the table should have at least:

Surrender
Flee
Pass Out
Die

You could actually use this sort of thing on PCs, too, because the precedent for taking away player autonomy at 0hp has already been set. But note that this makes being extremely brave rather bad for characters, as they'll die more often!

 

[techno]

Using these morale rules can greatly shorten 4e combat--one of the main criticisms of 4e. It can also create some memorable and funny situations. For example, in our last session, the party was ambushed by a bunch of mercenaries led by a mercenary sergeant. One PC used a daily power and wounded (bloodied) the sergeant in the first round. Even with his leader bonus, he failed his morale check and bolted. This created a cascading effect with his men because they had to make a morale check once they saw their leader bolt. All 7 of the mercenaries failed their morale checks (which is really against the odds) and scattered in different directions as a result. My players thought the whole scene was hilarious and memorable in an "Indie shoots the big-bad-sword-wielding-guy before he gets in range" sort of way. I always award full XP because the players did overcome the encounter. They just had some lucky die rolls that helped tremendously.

If you don't mind shorter combats and this kind of outcome occasionally happening sounds fun to you, you may want to try these morale rules. If not, I would probably steer clear. When this kind of result happens, it usually does mean the characters have less HP/healing surge loss than with a normal combat to the death and can continuing adventuring longer than usual. To me, this is a feature. To others, this might be a bug.

 

[NewJeffCT]

You could actually use this sort of thing on PCs, too, because the precedent for taking away player autonomy at 0hp has already been set. But note that this makes being extremely brave rather bad for characters, as they'll die more often!

Actually, in 4E, if the PC wants, they can change that last killing blow to one that merely gives the "killed" bad guy non-lethal damage instead. That allows you to interrogate the bad guy.

 

[Vespucci]

Sorry if that wasn't clear. I meant taking away the player autonomy when their character reaches 0hp.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I'm not a fan of rigid morale systems as every creature and encounter is different with its own nuances. I think instead it is one of the areas where the DM/GM really gets to put some thought into the combatants that they throw at the PCs and roleplay it to the hilt.

For example, animals and most "monsters" are generally after only a few things: food, protecting their young, protecting their territory and so on. A wolf in a pack might attack a single PC but as soon as the wolf is injured it is going to back off growling in pain - unless of course it is half-starved and the PC represents a meal the wolf they can almost taste, then it might fight to the death. Or when the pack leader is taken down, the rest of the pack scampers off. There are a whole heap of opportunities here to make the players think their way through a combat to find the optimal strategy for success (determine and take out the alpha male for example).

In the same breath, a soldier might turn tail and run or they might stay and fight in some deity or lover's name. Let PCs sense motive to guess at a combatants sticking power and morale. When is it possible to get them to lay down their sword and surrender, and how is this most easily achieved?

To my mind, getting into the minds of the creatures and NPCs at your command is how I derive a lot of enjoyment DMing and how I introduce elements of roleplay into combat. You can fight a horde of goblins, or you can take down the leader holding them all together. You can demoralize or antagonize your foes to elicit a desired response (and of course you have the NPCs do the same thing back to the PCs - particularly in a combat where the PCs know they may be bested). You design combats to have a short cut and a long way - and let the PCs work out what's going on... if they can. This to me is more fun than following a general morale formula for all combatants.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise