Shrink Item

[Jimlock]

If there isn't room for it to expand, it doesn't. I take that from the Enlarge Person spell, in case anyone needs the reference.

Well that's what happens with enlarge person... One could argue that since there is no specific text in Shrink item, the item gets back to normal no matter what.

The stronger material/construction wins. If the barrier is wooden and the item made of iron, the item breaks the barrier. If the barrier is iron and the item is wooden, the item gets crushed by the barrier. I imagine there are plenty of ambiguous results...well that's what the DM is for

 

[Greenfield]

Let's run with your idea. The item expands, no matter what.

Crushing a load of nails will deform them, to be sure, but 10 cubic feet of iron can't be crushed smaller than 10 cubic feet. There is no give there.

So is this a source of unlimited physical force? Topple mountains, uproot trees, move the pyramids type power?

Or, to put it in scale, what happens to the we stuffed with far too much iron. Does it burst, like a pipe bomb?

I could see pipe made of a metal like copper stretching and tearing. It's malleable that way. Cast iron, on the other hand, breaks before it bends. It would hold form for as long as it could, then fracture.

In the real world, when a pipe breaks from internal pressure, it tends to go like a balloon. That is, contain it for as long as it can, then spit and tear and blow apart. Whether it's a piece of PVC irrigation line or a cast iron water main, when they blow they go like small bombs. And, of course, the classic "too much pressure to hold" is the pipe bomb. The hard container concentrates the release of pressure, holding it in and letting the pressure build, then releasing it all at once. Firecrackers just fizzle if they're split open and lit. It's the wrapper that holds the pressure in for a moment that makes it go "pop".

So are we talking shrapnel? Damage? Or is this more like a slow motion expansion, like a hydraulic jack? How long can you delay the expansion?

To me, getting unlimited oomph out of a chunk of iron and a 3rd level spell seems too much. Same for getting pipe bomb effects. YMMV, of course.

 

[Dandu]

While it is true that there is no specific rule for this happening in the case of Shrink Item, explosive behavior is also not described and arguably stretches the rules more. Given that in D&D, physics is a houserule, I strongly suspect that most people will just go with the more conservative interpretation.

 

[Greenfield]

Okay, what's the "more conservative" interpretation? That a 3rd level spell can be used to wedge open a fortress wall? Can be used to lift a castle gate, or topple a mountain?

There really isn't any interpretation that comes out very "conservative".

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Okay, what's the "more conservative" interpretation?

That a shrunken item, commanded to return to full size, will either only expand as much as it can, given it's confines, OR that if it doesn't have enough space to fully expand, it will not expand at all.

 

[Dandu]

Yes, I was thinking of the one that does not involve physics headaches and pipe bombs.

 

[Jimlock]

OR that if it doesn't have enough space to fully expand, it will not expand at all.

The spell does not have a permanent duration. Once the spell ends the item will "try" to occupy the same space it's volume originally did. I don't see anything broken about it. It either brakes through its confines, or it brakes itself, or there is damage to both of them.
There is nothing broken about it.
Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, and personally I see more power in that spell.

 

[Greenfield]

Okay. How do you "brake" an iron block so it takes less space? Or a granite block. Or a sandstone block. Or a sack of sand?

It's like asking which is heavier, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers. They're both a pound.

Same thing here: Which is larger, 10 cubic feet of iron or 10 cubic feet of sand?

Answer: They're the same, and regardless of hardness or hit points per inch, you still need 10 cubic feet of space for it.

So a 3rd level spell can move mountains. I suppose that's better than using it to launch things into orbit (see "Hamster Cannon" notes in previous threads), but that doesn't make it good.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The spell does not have a permanent duration. Once the spell ends the item will "try" to occupy the same space it's volume originally did. I don't see anything broken about it. It either brakes through its confines, or it brakes itself, or there is damage to both of them.
There is nothing broken about it.
Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, and personally I see more power in that spell.

Nor do Enlarge Person or Reduce Person have a permanent duration

Enlarge Person :: d20srd.org
Reduce Person :: d20srd.org

Yet you're not going to crush someone via confining them in too small a space for their size change.

 

[Greenfield]

Sadly, neither of those spells talks about what happens when the spell ends, or at least they don't say anything the sheds any light on the question at hand.

Any DM is free to take this one in any direction they like. While I (obviously) like one particular flavor of answer, there's no way to say that any one of us is either right or wrong.

Rule one way and you have a 3rd level spell delivering virtually unlimited physical force. Rule the other way and you have a way to give that spell virtually unlimited duration.

The only real question is, which flavor of "broken" do you prefer?