Can You Empower Claws of the Beast?

Can You Empower Claws of the Beast?


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Nail said:
Because it's in the sentence with the damage die, just as caster level (etc) is in other spells.
So, your rule of thumb should be amended (yet again) because +STR is undeniably a simple repetition of normal melee attack rules, regardless of what sentence it was listed in.

In actuality, I can't believe you're creating a rule of thumb based on what sentence the rules are listed in. If it's in the same sentence with the damage die, it's not simple repetition (regardless of whether it seems to be simple repetition). If it isn't, then it may or may not be simple repetition based on some undisclosed formula. :)
 

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So, what would your rule be? "Empowered only if the spell creates something that has a variable numeric effect that takes effect without the spell target taking any action other than the casting of the spell in question and only including the variable numeric effect listed in the spell without including things that do not depend on the spell except in the case of spells that include some form of caster level , but then only in some circumstances that include...."

:)

Remember, your definition has to include/excule examples like Awaken, Confusion, Orb of Force, Spiritual Weapon, Summon Monster, Teleport, Wall of Iron, and Whirlwind, among others. :D
 

Nail said:
So, what would your rule be?
I have yet to be able to codify it properly, but it can be quickly summarized as "direct=yes/indirect=no".

Nail said:
Remember, your definition has to include/excule examples like Awaken, Confusion, Orb of Force, Spiritual Weapon, Summon Monster, Teleport, Wall of Iron, and Whirlwind, among others. :D
Agreed, although orb of cheese force doesn't exist IMC. :lol:
 

Infiniti2000 said:
I have yet to be able to codify it properly, but it can be quickly summarized as "direct=yes/indirect=no".

Agreed, although orb of cheese force doesn't exist IMC. :lol:

My DM has changed these orbs to be subject to spell resistance. You cannot change an evocation to a conjuration to avoid SR. Orbs of cheese become cheese no longer.
 


Apologies for necroing the thread, but there are some things that still need to be considered.

I won't go into the pure psionic part, but I was looking through the rules for Spiritual Weapon and Empower Spell, and I'm under the impression that Spiritual Weapon (and many other spells) can indeed be modified by Empower Spell. This is all under the 3.5 system by the way.

One thing to consider is whether the effects and objects of the specific spell have ever, could ever, or will ever exist. If you had never cast, in this case, Spiritual Weapon, would the effect exist? No. Thus, even though one might say casting the spell creates an effect that is separate from the spell, it absolutely isn't. The effect is an inherent part of the spell.

This easily explains why most Summon spells don't benefit from Empower or Maximize: The creature or item already existed. The effect of the spell is only to bring the thing to the same location and in most cases bind it to the caster to do whatever. Since these properties have no variable, numerical value, the use of Empower and/or Maximize is wasted.


To quote Empower straight from the PHB:

EMPOWER SPELL [METAMAGIC]
You can cast spells to greater effect.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal...and so forth, as appropriate. For example, an empowered magic missile deals 1-1/2 times its normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1-1/2 for each missile). Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you cast dispel magic) are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Take note of how it uses Magic Missile as an example. Most people would say that the 1d4 is the only variable, but the description specifically adds that extra 1 in. D&D, in this example at least, appears to use the mathematics and computers definition of variable, which is:

10. Mathematics, Computers . a. a quantity or function that may assume any given value or set of values. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/variable

1d4+1 is a set of values and is, by the rules, variable. Likewise, claws doing 1d4 points of damage with a +1 strength benefit will do (1d4+1) x 1.5, because the damage done is still a variable.

Because the spell created those claws, the claws are the spell itself, meaning they can be Empowered. The variable part of the claws isn't just the 1d4 though: It's anything that can modify that damage, because it's a variable. If the claws get a +2 damage benefit from strength, the variable becomes 1d4+2. Since Empower explicitly states all numeric and variable effects are increased by one-half, the 1d4+2 is multiplied by 1.5 to determine the final outcome. If the attack happens to crit, that's still a variable effect is is also subject to the Empowerment.

So yea, the claws if you're going strictly by the book do indeed benefit from Empower and such. It's up to the DM whether this is too much.
 

Apologies, not convinced.

Also, D&D defines "variable" differently. Empower Spell refers to the dice being "variable" and not any damage bonuses attached to them. This has been clarified several times by WotC both explicitly and in examples of how Empower Spell should work.
 


I may be misremembering but I thought this issue was addressed in the FAQ and that variable was said to be the dice. I guess I could be wrong though.

I did not remember the example in the PHB. I tend to not pay attention to them due to the spotty quality of WotC examples. If you believe the example to be correct then feel free to go with it.
 
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I just want to bring up a few things from the FAQ:

Do Empower Spell and Maximize Spell affect d20 rolls
made as part of a spell’s effect (such as an attack roll or
dispel check)?

No. Any attack roll, saving throw, skill check, dispel check,
or any other d20 roll required to adjudicate a spell’s success or
failure is not considered a “variable, numeric effect” of the
spell and thus is unaffected by feats such as Empower Spell or
Maximize Spell.

Just because it varies does not mean it is a "variable numeric effect", though for what it's worth the FAQ is not RAW and not always right.

Ultimately, this is somewhat of a murky area. Go with what you feel is right.

After sleeping on it, I think I've gone to neutral on this issue. I guess I can't really say no to extra Magic Missile damage, though...
 

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