Can You Empower Claws of the Beast?

[farscapesg1]

It says, "Your claws are natural weapons, so you are considered armed when attacking with them, and they can be affected by powers, spells, and effects that enhance or improve natural." Assuming you agree that Power Attack is an 'effect' and that the sentence intended to finish with 'weapons', why isn't Power Attack specified in the power description? So, let's say you have claws of the beast and then get a greater magic fang. Isn't the greater magic fang bonus to damage part of the empower?

This is why I am firmly stuck on the opinion that Empower Power (or Empower Spell) only works on damage specifically stated in the spell/power description. Strength doesn't factor in, sneak attack doesn't factor in, weapon focus doesn't factor in, etc.

This is why I also firmly believe that Empower Power would work on the Claws of the Beast because the damage is listed in the spell description. If they wanted it to function as normal natural weapons, then they should have said "refer to Monster Manual table 5-1 for claw damage of an appropriate sized character". Instead, they gave the base damage, and then added a table that has been pointed out as not following the normal progression of size increases (goes 4d6->5d6 instead of 4d6->6d6).

 

[Nail]

This is why I am firmly stuck on the opinion that Empower Power (or Empower Spell) only works on damage specifically stated in the spell/power description. Strength doesn't factor in, sneak attack doesn't factor in, weapon focus doesn't factor in, etc.

Strength is EXPLICITLY stated as part of the damage in the power description.

 

[Infiniti2000]

This is why I am firmly stuck on the opinion that Empower Power (or Empower Spell) only works on damage specifically stated in the spell/power description. Strength doesn't factor in, sneak attack doesn't factor in, weapon focus doesn't factor in, etc.

The strength bonus is specifically state in the power description, in line with the damage die. I see no way that you can argue that you can empower the 1d4 and not the 1d4+strength bonus. I'll leave the discussion on what happens with a strength penalty for another time.

Also, unless my previous post wasn't clear, I'm asserting that claws of the beast specifically refers to other powers, spells, and effects. Thus anything that can affect your claws will be empowered.

This is why I also firmly believe that Empower Power would work on the Claws of the Beast because the damage is listed in the spell description.

Note that this differs from Hyp's rule of thumb, which is not just a requirement of listed in the spell description. It must be listed in the spell description and not listed anywhere else.

 

[KarinsDad]

It says, "Your claws are natural weapons, so you are considered armed when attacking with them, and they can be affected by powers, spells, and effects that enhance or improve natural." Assuming you agree that Power Attack is an 'effect' and that the sentence intended to finish with 'weapons', why isn't Power Attack specified in the power description? So, let's say you have claws of the beast and then get a greater magic fang. Isn't the greater magic fang bonus to damage part of the empower?

You have to read the entire power.

You gain two natural attacks with your claws, each dealing 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if you are Large, or 1d3 if you are Small) plus your Strength bonus.

This is the damage the claws do. This is the most that can be Empowered since this is what the power states as the damage (or more if augmented).

Your quote allows additional damage to be added on, but it is precisely that: an add on (an enhancement or an improvement, but not normal damage). It would not be part of the Empower since it is damage from an external source from the Empowered power.

Personally, I do not think the Strength bonus should be Empowered either, but the power does explicitly state that Strength IS included in the normal damage of the Claws (as RAW).

 

[Infiniti2000]

You have to read the entire power.

You're right! All this time, all I had to do was keep reading!

Your quote allows additional damage to be added on, but it is precisely that: an add on (an enhancement or an improvement, but not normal damage). It would not be part of the Empower since it is damage from an external source from the Empowered power.

So, Strength is an internal source of claws of the beast? Regardless, this is starting to sound like an identical argument to direct/indirect. What from Empower Spell/Power, do you see as requiring internal sources only?

In other words, if the damage dealt by the claws is empowered, why don't you consider it empowered? Or, do you argue that when you use Power Attack with the claws, you deal (e.g.) 10 points with the claws, and 5 points from the power attack. Is it separate damage, such as separating vile damage?

Personally, I do not think the Strength bonus should be Empowered either, but the power does explicitly state that Strength IS included in the normal damage of the Claws (as RAW).

Now you've introduced another phrase: normal damage. We have internal/external, normal, what else? What in Empower Spell only affects 'normal damage'? Maybe I need to read the whole power description, but does claws of the beast even use the words 'normal damage' or external source? Does Empower Spell?

In short, what basis do you have for these claims?

 

[Nail]

What I see (and what I think I2K, among others, is pointing to), is that you have to draw the line somewhere on the "what is empowered?" variable-numeric-effect line.

If the rule is "whatever is listed in the spell description that isn't a simple repeat of rules elsewhere", you are still left with adjudicating whether or not strength damage (etc) is part of the empowered total.

As KD has said, I think the only RAW answer to that is "yes".

 

[KarinsDad]

What I see (and what I think I2K, among others, is pointing to), is that you have to draw the line somewhere on the "what is empowered?" variable-numeric-effect line.

If the rule is "whatever is listed in the spell description that isn't a simple repeat of rules elsewhere", you are still left with adjudicating whether or not strength damage (etc) is part of the empowered total.

As KD has said, I think the only RAW answer to that is "yes".

Precisely.

Just like Flame Blade explicitly adds Caster Level / 2 to the damage of the blade, Claws of the Beast explicitly adds Strength modifier to the damage dealt by the Claws.

One could increase the damage of an Empowered Flame Blade by using a Fire Spirit Companion, but the damage from that companion is not Empowered.

Only the damage explicitly listed in the spell or power as damage of the spell or power is Empowerable.

 

[wildstarsreach]

You have to read the entire power.



This is the damage the claws do. This is the most that can be Empowered since this is what the power states as the damage (or more if augmented).

Your quote allows additional damage to be added on, but it is precisely that: an add on (an enhancement or an improvement, but not normal damage). It would not be part of the Empower since it is damage from an external source from the Empowered power.

Personally, I do not think the Strength bonus should be Empowered either, but the power does explicitly state that Strength IS included in the normal damage of the Claws (as RAW).

Since it doesn't explicitly state that strength damage is empowered, it isn't. Either way it shouldn't since empower is augmenting the power, not what else you can do.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Didn't mean to double post.

 

[KarinsDad]

Since it doesn't explicitly state that strength damage is empowered, it isn't. Either way it shouldn't since empower is augmenting the power, not what else you can do.

No power or spell states what damage is explicitly empowerable. That determination is made from the description of Empower Spell or Empower Power.

The power does however explicitly state that the damage of the claws is D4 + Strength.

It does not state that the damage of the claws is D4. And oh by the way, you can add strength like always to a natural attack.

The damage is D4 + Strength as per the power. Hence by RAW, that is what is Empowerable. Not just the D4.