How should I respond to my DM?

[Naoki00_]

At first, I thought you were out of your mind. Then I digested it.


I think this could work, I think I could even run something like this.

First, I would chuck the actual D&D Mechanics. Keep the cosmology stuff though.

Since I don't know the other characters...yours would be challenged by the other bastard children of AO. They are not gods, so your stone, is not a big help. And I think one would be in service to entropy.

Then, the sessions would span actions of weeks and months. You would be stymied without knowing how or why, and you would have to figure out who/how/why.


And if you ever. ever. wound up in Sigil, the first person...the very first person you see would be her greatness the Lady of the Blades herself.

I would not run this to be mean or hostile to the players, this is just what I see as a good campaign focus.

So, to the point of your question, I think your group has to have a big sit down. I think you are either using the wrong system, or the DM is not suited for this (And he could still be a great DM in general), or a bit of both.

But that is just my 2 cents.

Sounds like he's already doing that, and I don't think anyone here suggested that challenging the players is restricted to combat. The books are guidelines and if he has found that, because of the nature of the campaign and character builds, he needs to make some adjustments, then the players won't always know just how things are going to turn out by knowing what's in the books, and I think you're being well challenged. I'd suggest less quoting the rulebook to the DM and more player of characters to figure out what to do when knowing the rules doesn't get you what you expect. Of course, we only have a limited amount of information on which to based the advice we give in this thread.

to rkwoodard: At least I finally hear someone else that likes the idea lol, I like your idea alot, and we might play around with it a bit, though it wouldn't be anything like the original plot, currently the main challenge with her is to find how to gain more power then she already has and to weaken the gods.

and to Mark CMG: sadly enough he's not challenging us at all. he's simply making up things on the go without any reason too other then because he doesn't want us doing something we always normally could. (it's like a cleric not being able to heal a party member for a reason that makes no sense like 'your spell does nothing, you don't know why, it just doesn't", with literally, no reason why) a challenge would be a mortal with a brilliant mind on the side of good with enough standing that if he vanished too many would talk, things like that.

 

[Mark CMG]

and to Mark CMG: sadly enough he's not challenging us at all. he's simply making up things on the go without any reason too other then because he doesn't want us doing something we always normally could. (it's like a cleric not being able to heal a party member for a reason that makes no sense like 'your spell does nothing, you don't know why, it just doesn't", with literally, no reason why) a challenge would be a mortal with a brilliant mind on the side of good with enough standing that if he vanished too many would talk, things like that.

Sounds to me like you're being shadowed by someone (possibly, a "mortal with a brilliant mind on the side of good") who has some means of rendering your regular (and probably well known) modus operendi inert. If you can remain hidden from the gods, I'd imagine someone could easily remain hidden from you. Things you "always normally could" do sounds like a pattern that any intelligent foe could pick up on and decide it is your weakness. That's one of the many tricks a good DM uses to challenge players. Perhaps he is toying with you.

 

[Oryan77]

Now before I reply, I want to make it clear that I understand that I do not know you and your group and my statements are based off of nothing more than assumptions that I came to due to what you have said. So I'm not trying to judge you or your players/DM. I'm just trying to point out some things that I feel you are not looking at yourself.

to us, a DM shouldn't so much say "this happens because I said so"

Your DM is doing this though when he stated that your powers were not working on the NPC. I understand you had a problem with him doing that. But, you cannot expect the DM to not do that while you and your players are doing it. It works both ways.

If you think a DM can't just have things happen because he "says so", then as a player, you cannot have things happen because you "say so". You admit to having broken PCs, it sounds like it was your idea to have the Negative Energy Plane in your body. It sounds like most of your crazy abilities are not rules taken from the books and are things you came up with. Which means, they are features you say your PC has because "you said so". It doesn't matter if your DM allowed you to have those features; they are still features that exist only because you say so.

Therefore, you cannot expect the DM to run powerful NPCs by the rules if your characters are not being run by the rules themselves. If you want to play this campaign, you're simply going to have to let the DM do whatever he wants and not complain about "weird" things happening when you get to do weird things all the time.

the DM more or less plays 'the world' and everything in it, while we play the main guys.

From what I can tell, you are not letting the DM play the world. You seem to have an expectation on what should happen in the world. It seems like you already have some sort of script in your head on how things should work out for your PC (control planes/worlds, then hide from gods while you lay havoc on others, then you will encounter gods only when you are more powerful and ready to do so yourself).

Even though you claim that gods are a threat to you, I have a very strong feeling that no matter what this DM does, anything that actually does threaten your PC will cause you to cry foul and complain that the DM is cheating or something (even though the players are allowed to cheat by using these made up features).

As someone mentioned already, anything you can do, the NPCs can do. If you have some way to hide from gods, there are gods that will have some way to find out about you & your actions. I'm sure if someone found out about your evil deeds and attempted to stop you before you expected to be confronted, you would just complain about it since it is not going to your script. That's just my assumption based on what I'm getting from your posts and attitude towards this campaign. I mean nothing bad by it.

My opinion about this whole campaign, I say, if you want to play in it, then sit back and enjoy the ride. Let the DM do whatever he wants to do, and you just react to it. There really isn't anything to complain about because this campaign is broken from the start. So you guys are basically saying, "screw the rules and logic, let's just do some cool & crazy stuff." You created your character willy-nilly, so just let the DM run his NPCs willy-nilly. Otherwise, if you are not ok with that, then you guys will never be happy with this campaign.

 

[Oryan77]

it's like a cleric not being able to heal a party member for a reason that makes no sense like 'your spell does nothing, you don't know why, it just doesn't", with literally, no reason why

So what are the reasons "why" your PC has the negative energy plane in his/her body? How'd that happen and how come nobody else has done that first or took that feature away from you?

If you do have reasons for that, then does that mean every NPC knows those reasons? What I'm getting at is, why do you expect to know why your spell does nothing against an NPC simply because the DM isn't telling you out of game? An NPC might encounter you and not know why the Negative Energy Plane exists inside of your body. Shouldn't that NPC be complaining that you get to have a plane inside your body and he does not know why because the DM isn't telling him why? Just because you don't know why spells are not working does not mean you are supposed to know what is going on. Maybe an NPC has some ability to make your spells not work. As crazy and powerful of a campaign you are playing, I'm not sure why yer surprised that spells are not working when they normally would. Rather than complaining & speculating that the DM is cheating, shouldn't you be roleplaying and trying to figure out why your spells were not working?

You are trying to play "by the rules" when this entire campaign is based off of not playing by the rules in any sort of way. There is nothing wrong with that at all, but you need to be ok with that first before you play. Otherwise, yer just going to keep complaining about the same sort of things you are already complaining about.

 

[Naoki00_]

So what are the reasons "why" your PC has the negative energy plane in his/her body? How'd that happen and how come nobody else has done that first or took that feature away from you?

If you do have reasons for that, then does that mean every NPC knows those reasons? What I'm getting at is, why do you expect to know why your spell does nothing against an NPC simply because the DM isn't telling you out of game? An NPC might encounter you and not know why the Negative Energy Plane exists inside of your body. Shouldn't that NPC be complaining that you get to have a plane inside your body and he does not know why because the DM isn't telling him why? Just because you don't know why spells are not working does not mean you are supposed to know what is going on. Maybe an NPC has some ability to make your spells not work. As crazy and powerful of a campaign you are playing, I'm not sure why yer surprised that spells are not working when they normally would. Rather than complaining & speculating that the DM is cheating, shouldn't you be roleplaying and trying to figure out why your spells were not working?

You are trying to play "by the rules" when this entire campaign is based off of not playing by the rules in any sort of way. There is nothing wrong with that at all, but you need to be ok with that first before you play. Otherwise, yer just going to keep complaining about the same sort of things you are already complaining about.

Now before I reply, I want to make it clear that I understand that I do not know you and your group and my statements are based off of nothing more than assumptions that I came to due to what you have said. So I'm not trying to judge you or your players/DM. I'm just trying to point out some things that I feel you are not looking at yourself.



Your DM is doing this though when he stated that your powers were not working on the NPC. I understand you had a problem with him doing that. But, you cannot expect the DM to not do that while you and your players are doing it. It works both ways.

If you think a DM can't just have things happen because he "says so", then as a player, you cannot have things happen because you "say so". You admit to having broken PCs, it sounds like it was your idea to have the Negative Energy Plane in your body. It sounds like most of your crazy abilities are not rules taken from the books and are things you came up with. Which means, they are features you say your PC has because "you said so". It doesn't matter if your DM allowed you to have those features; they are still features that exist only because you say so.

Therefore, you cannot expect the DM to run powerful NPCs by the rules if your characters are not being run by the rules themselves. If you want to play this campaign, you're simply going to have to let the DM do whatever he wants and not complain about "weird" things happening when you get to do weird things all the time.


From what I can tell, you are not letting the DM play the world. You seem to have an expectation on what should happen in the world. It seems like you already have some sort of script in your head on how things should work out for your PC (control planes/worlds, then hide from gods while you lay havoc on others, then you will encounter gods only when you are more powerful and ready to do so yourself).

Even though you claim that gods are a threat to you, I have a very strong feeling that no matter what this DM does, anything that actually does threaten your PC will cause you to cry foul and complain that the DM is cheating or something (even though the players are allowed to cheat by using these made up features).

As someone mentioned already, anything you can do, the NPCs can do. If you have some way to hide from gods, there are gods that will have some way to find out about you & your actions. I'm sure if someone found out about your evil deeds and attempted to stop you before you expected to be confronted, you would just complain about it since it is not going to your script. That's just my assumption based on what I'm getting from your posts and attitude towards this campaign. I mean nothing bad by it.

My opinion about this whole campaign, I say, if you want to play in it, then sit back and enjoy the ride. Let the DM do whatever he wants to do, and you just react to it. There really isn't anything to complain about because this campaign is broken from the start. So you guys are basically saying, "screw the rules and logic, let's just do some cool & crazy stuff." You created your character willy-nilly, so just let the DM run his NPCs willy-nilly. Otherwise, if you are not ok with that, then you guys will never be happy with this campaign.

Sounds to me like you're being shadowed by someone (possibly, a "mortal with a brilliant mind on the side of good") who has some means of rendering your regular (and probably well known) modus operendi inert. If you can remain hidden from the gods, I'd imagine someone could easily remain hidden from you. Things you "always normally could" do sounds like a pattern that any intelligent foe could pick up on and decide it is your weakness. That's one of the many tricks a good DM uses to challenge players. Perhaps he is toying with you.

to Mark CMG: I would completely agree if that was actually physically possible in this campaign world. our characters are more or less the most power mortal or semi-mortal beings to exist in the current multiverse- we are the ones doing the shadowing, not only that but well...I'll be honest with you all, he's not that smart with it..we're a very thought intensive bunch which is why combat is usually redundant, not only that but in all reality no one that would know our operendi is left iin existence other then Ao, who doesn't know we're back yet. imagine that WE are the big enemy, the 'good guys' don't know our plot or what we do with it, not only that but by "normally could do" I mean at times when tricks he didn't expect us to do (verbally and visually surprised by how thought out our plans and tricks are) he says that it just doesn't work, then thinks up a reason it doesn't.


and now to Oryan77: I think part of the problem is only so much info here has been given. no other creature or being other then the goddess of magic herself and most likely Ao, can do the things my character can do in stroy-wise, this doesn't follow the normal DnD rules as a whole...I don't think I can honestly tell you how things in this world work, but powerful NPC's that can rival her are in such a rarity that encountering one so early in the game is well...it's slightly a slap in the face to all of us that helped create the plot...for example, her spells CAN'T normally be negated as she was born from magic itself, she is more powerful then any normal magic user, they can called dispel and be 4 times her caster level and it wouldn't matter, she simply reworks their own spell into nothingness...with magic, she's second only to her parents, thats why we know it's for no reason that it's happening.

 

[Mark CMG]

to Mark CMG: I would completely agree if that was actually physically possible in this campaign world. our characters are more or less the most power mortal or semi-mortal beings to exist in the current multiverse- we are the ones doing the shadowing, not only that but well...I'll be honest with you all, he's not that smart with it..we're a very thought intensive bunch which is why combat is usually redundant, not only that but in all reality no one that would know our operendi is left iin existence other then Ao, who doesn't know we're back yet. imagine that WE are the big enemy, the 'good guys' don't know our plot or what we do with it, not only that but by "normally could do" I mean at times when tricks he didn't expect us to do (verbally and visually surprised by how thought out our plans and tricks are) he says that it just doesn't work, then thinks up a reason it doesn't.

Sounds like you should be the DM. Why don't you switch?

 

[saskganesh]

Ihell we plan on cohorting with some of the gods in order to gain the power we need anyway, before backstabbing them of course. from the very beginning though? the story hasn't even gotten off that far...that would be like a book reaching a conclusion in the 2nd chapter.

sounds like you expect the gods to be stupid, so in my opinion, you don't have much of a game.

 

[Oryan77]

powerful NPC's that can rival her are in such a rarity that encountering one so early in the game is well...it's slightly a slap in the face to all of us that helped create the plot

I was going to respond with a serious (hopefully helpful) post, but I can see responding in this thread is completely pointless. I'm not really sure why you need a DM to run this game. It sounds like everything (including the outcome) has been preplanned by the players and I can't see how this could be fun for any DM. But what do I know, I get bored playing video games in invincibility mode.

All I know is that if a player told me it felt like a slap in the face because I had an NPC challenge them "so early in the game", I'd laugh.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

I agree with you. Your dm has deviated from basic idea for that game. Looks like he is trying to save the world from you and trying stop you instead of letting
it go to next phase where powers that be should finally realize how dangerous you are, and try to stop you, even if it might be too late, or if not, price
of victory would be high. I think your story was originally about rise of evil and killing some gods and forcing change in world's order or it's destruction,
revealing maybe your true nature as agents of entropy, where you then might ascend to even more primordial monsters and start devasteting other cosmosies like cold
hungry intelligent black holes. (I think I have seen stats here for something like that, lol). Or some other kinda ending.


Anyhow I think many here are making asumptions that interesting game is about challenge and those fearful of consequences of power would like to take away
your items of power and re-bind you before you even get to do away with some sorry priesthood.


I don't think your current dm is up to task. And neither are D6D rules, sure you can use them, but actually "use" them is slow and uninsparing as far as combats go.
When our games went beyond mortal D&D adventures we kept character sheets but actual combats used the idea of our abilities rather than abudance of details, and all combat
was basicly single success dice method, opposed rolls. Well, when there was actual challenge involted.


I think biggest problem with dm is, he is trying to use the rules too much, yet not able to. And he doesn't truly feel he owns the game. He doesn't feel ownership to the story.
Thus he is trying to rewrite it, yet he doesn't have actual better idea. So, he is doing passive-aggressive dm:ing "I have this secret, and that is why your powers don't work".
It does sound like an excuse, like a placeholder for some idea, that he hasn't have yet.


I can't know for sure since I don't know you but I feel like he does not like dm:ing it or if you are really lucky he is just missing point you agreed to and is trying to
change the premise. Talking with him is must anyhow.



I like reading about other people playing that kinda games. I like lowbie games too, but I'd played lot of really epic games. Power can be fun. It requires right kind of mind set from
dm and players though. I like games like that for stories. Some like to play it as D&D encounters, those play-styles don't mix well.



I think your dm might be great for other kinda games, but not for this one, Maybe his imagination works better for different stuff. More regular adventuring.
Cosmic change games might not be his cup of tea.

Or maybe it's just that you are trying to tell the story more than he is. That kinda playstyle works for some people but not for all. I personally prefer dm still be the main story teller, no
matter how wild games go.

Maybe he feels there are too many expectations regarding consequences coming from you. It's irritating if players keep correcting you about story elements. It really really is.


So talk with him. Tell what you want from game, find out if you still are wanting the same thing. And find out if he wants to quit this. And if he still seems to like idea of game offer to
dm it instead, or that another player. And if it's more about the story simplify the uber-epic rules. That games requires more wild imagination and less rules-mastery. D&D epic and divane books
were never that good. I think they were missing the point of epic. YMMV of course.

I hope you find some way to continue that game, that is fun for everyone. Talk about it and try to bring fun back. Don't complain and argue, that never changes things for better, I have many bitter

experiences about that one.


Good luck.
And please tell how it went. And if you do continue the game, I would love to hear what happens in it. That of course is up to you.

 

[Naoki00_]

I was going to respond with a serious (hopefully helpful) post, but I can see responding in this thread is completely pointless. I'm not really sure why you need a DM to run this game. It sounds like everything (including the outcome) has been preplanned by the players and I can't see how this could be fun for any DM. But what do I know, I get bored playing video games in invincibility mode.

All I know is that if a player told me it felt like a slap in the face because I had an NPC challenge them "so early in the game", I'd laugh.

sounds like you expect the gods to be stupid, so in my opinion, you don't have much of a game.

Sounds like you should be the DM. Why don't you switch?

firstly to Mark CMG: I was going to be at first when we were planning, though I was already DMing 2 other campaigns and was getting a little bit tired of it, hoping to relax from it a little.

now on to Saskganesh: by all means no, I don't expect them to be stupid, if they knew we were around they'd be our main problem. as for working with gods to pit them against other gods...that sort of thing is pretty common, no god is infallible (specially if you go be greek and roman standards) and can be worked with, it's hard to put forth a good argument for yourself, but it's possible.

and to Oryan77: I really am sorry to hear that..I'm not trying to make it pointless really, I think I might have given too little information at the beginning of this thread and that my fault..and yes I'll admit most of the plan is pretty much established, we know what we want, and what to do to get it. how we go about getting to the point we can get it is the tricky part, such as having to trick gods and the like...one word out of place and we're found out....as for the slapping comment, why would you laugh? the beginning of a story doesn't have to be as hard as the middle or the end no matter how powerful the stories characters...most of us have only recently been brought out of being sealed with no one in the current world knowing we're there, powerful NPC's aren't even supposed to be around but maybe 1 or 2 per god based on how this world plots have been based, THATS why it feels like a slap. "your character is plot-wise the most powerful being in this whole plane and several others, but one false move thats too loud and the gods will find you...oh look a random deity that just rules this city that can somehow undo the magic of something it probably can't even touch"...that sort of feeling, when you've all know a story so well that it's near concrete, and then someone makes a fanfic and nerfs the main character so what they want to happen can happen even though it would never happen based on the established canon....what I'm trying to ask is that if my DM decides to do something like that, when it goes against everything we've all known about the world we're in, how do you react to it?....

I am sorry to anyone who is replying on this thread if this seems like arguing or anything like that, it might just be me really but I keep feeling I need to clarify things..