D&D 4E What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?

[delericho]

Blowing through all their dailies is not using four encounters' worth of resources, because four encounters' worth includes four copies of each encounter power.

Doesn't matter. It's still the 15-minute adventuring day.

I'd say it's safer rather than easier. Feel free to dismiss that as semantics, if you like.

Okay, safer then.

However, the fact that the party still has something in the tank after blowing their dailies means that the DM can ensure at least two interesting fights per day. A 3e fight with no spells left is extremely boring for spellcasters; a 4e fight with no dailies is much more entertaining.

Depends how you define 'interesting'. If the players are simply going to refuse to get on with the adventure until they've rested, then any encounter that takes place until they've done that is a waste of time. Just let them rest and get on with it. (And this is more true in 4e, when every combat takes significant time, and so should be a significant event. Throwing extra encounters in there to try to prevent the 15m/AD is a bad idea when you only have time for three encounters in the session, and that at a push.)

Also, if the party has blown through their resources and now has to fight on without, the stakes are suddenly that much higher. That certainly seems mighty interesting to me. As for the wizard, who doesn't get to "do something cool" this encounter? Well, he's probably just dominated the previous one blowing through his spells, so it's the Fighter's turn to shine. It's just a different model.

 

[wlmartin]

A DM that lets a group take an Extended Rest too often is just pandering too his players. It is like they are in some kind of FPS and are used to the Automatic Reload feature of their guns!

Extended Rest should be taken every 12 hours, and whilst this is hard to judge in game terms - it should at least feel like 12 hours not after every encounter or every 2nd encounter.

If a group is without its dailies because they were spent in ENC-1 then the DM shouldn't let them take an Extended Rest until it feels right and that player will have to do with his normal ENC & AW powers. Any DM that lets players take an Extended Rest after each ENC (and there are some that do!) should ONLY do so if He is putting higher level monsters against the group

IE : If the right level for a monster group is 5th, upgrading it to 6th or 7th might account for the extra dailies everyone gets to refresh.

DM HOUSERULES are fun and should be embraced but when there are DMs that give their players +5 magic items at 1st level and put them against level equal monsters they are just wasting everyones time as nothing will feel challenging

 

[Kerranin]

If I remember correctly, it does say in the 4e rules that you cannot take another extended rest until at least 12 hours have passed after the end of the previous extended rest.

As long as the DM makes this clear to their players, then it is the players responsibility to manage their resources.

Having said that, the design of the adventure can have a significant impact on players' ability to manage resources, so the DM does have a responsibility here.

 

[delericho]

A DM that lets a group take an Extended Rest too often is just pandering too his players. It is like they are in some kind of FPS and are used to the Automatic Reload feature of their guns!

You know, it's funny. Back when WotC started decrying the 15m/AD as a massive flaw in 3e, we responded with exactly that argument. Curiously, it didn't cut any ice then. It doesn't now.

If I remember correctly, it does say in the 4e rules that you cannot take another extended rest until at least 12 hours have passed after the end of the previous extended rest.

"Fine", say the players. "We'll just wait here for 12 hours, and then take our rest."

Whereupon the DM has two chocies: add 'filler' encounters that only serve to slow down the game even further, or let the players take their rest and get on with it. Neither is a good solution.

And this is exactly the same issue in 4e as in 3e. The 15m/AD is a playstyle issue. 4e's rules do not fix it.

 

[Akaiku]

By design, your party shouldn't be running out of surges after one or two fights. You can't spend that many healing surges in a single encounter unless like, every party member is a leader.

Not true. Second wind plus heal back to full from being dropped is 5 surges. 6 if you got a cleric heal as well. Extremely likely if you are a squishy that gets surrounded.

Unless you squishes never get surrounded or dropped. Also, I guess if you have the healing surge moving ritual, but that shouldn't be a default assumption.

 

[Kerranin]

"Fine", say the players. "We'll just wait here for 12 hours, and then take our rest."

Whereupon the DM has two chocies: add 'filler' encounters that only serve to slow down the game even further, or let the players take their rest and get on with it. Neither is a good solution.

And this is exactly the same issue in 4e as in 3e. The 15m/AD is a playstyle issue. 4e's rules do not fix it.

I agree, it is a playstyle issue; sounds like you'd need new players in that situation.

Not true. Second wind plus heal back to full from being dropped is 5 surges. 6 if you got a cleric heal as well. Extremely likely if you are a squishy that gets surrounded.

In which case, do a longer short rest (maybe 10-15 mins) and get your cleric to use healing word to heal you up expending fewer surges. A squishy getting surrounded should be rare unless you have a poorly balanced group, a reckless squishy, or a nasty DM.

In most combats a squishy, and I am thinking a Wizard here, just wont get attacked very much. If you find you are being attacked a lot, then you need to ask what can I do differently, what can the group do differently, or how can I respond to what the DM does?

 

[Tuft]

"Fine", say the players. "We'll just wait here for 12 hours, and then take our rest."

Whereupon the DM has two chocies: add 'filler' encounters that only serve to slow down the game even further, or let the players take their rest and get on with it. Neither is a good solution.

And this is exactly the same issue in 4e as in 3e. The 15m/AD is a playstyle issue. 4e's rules do not fix it.

When I played Shadowrun we had dice pools that renewed each session. I wondered why a certain player suddenly started asking lots of rules questions, asking for clarifications of details in the situation, discussing minutiae, raising arguments, etc, whenever her dice pools started to get low. After a while I realized that she was filibustering - trying to occupy so much time that the next encounters would be postponed to the next session, when she would have fresh pools.

Once players realize that you can use resource reload points to increase your power by having fewer encounters between each such point, well... It's hard to put that genie back into the bottle.

 

[Kerranin]

Once players realize that you can use resource reload points to increase your power by having fewer encounters between each such point, well... It's hard to put that genie back into the bottle.

I agree but it does depend on the individual player, some will try to exploit it, others will just ignore it.

 

[Dead Scribe]

Not true. Second wind plus heal back to full from being dropped is 5 surges. 6 if you got a cleric heal as well. Extremely likely if you are a squishy that gets surrounded.

Unless you squishes never get surrounded or dropped. Also, I guess if you have the healing surge moving ritual, but that shouldn't be a default assumption.

I guess in the instance that your melee striker has no Constitution and is constantly surrounding themselves with enemies, this COULD happen. But, what the heck were the other party members doing? If those monsters are ignoring the defender and controller, they should be getting tied up and killed while they're paying attention to the striker. It shouldn't be happening every fight unless the striker just isn't working with the group at all.

also derp, I somehow left out a key factor in my earlier post: 4 minions = 1 standard monster of equivalent level.

 

[Talok]

@ Warlocklord

How is 4e an evolution to 3e? I am not going to go through a point by point analysis of 4th over 3rd but it is a clear evolution. 3rd was stuck in the ways of old with BAB and restrictive classes, major overbalanced characters and a skill system that was nothing more than a waste of time

Yes, any game has to have its rules.. it is the skeleton for which the Roleplayers and the DM add to to create the muscles and flesh. A game with an entirely different skeleton but the same players and energy would create a completely different experience just as the different experience you get from a 3e and 4e game.

The 2 big things that support roleplay more in 4e are
1 : A clearer and simpler rules system so that players are thinking less about the mechanics of the game and more about how to use those mechanics to make the game work for them. All the maths is done for you, you dont need to worry about what bonuses you get, the power card has it on there
2 : A skills system that actually builds strong Roleplay experiences instead of being an excuse to power game. Use magic device? If that isnt something built for minmaxers I dont know what is. The skill system and skill challenges take the game from being about hack+slash and allows the players to do something more. You couldnt incoporate a skill challenge into the 3e system as the structure isnt designed that way, skills are built as add-ons for combat...

Yes, there are aspects of 3rd I still love... but 4e is a stronger entity.
I am not trying to convince you... I am just offering my side of the discussion. I used to love 3rd and would shout that from the rooftops. I am open minded and when I saw 4e I was unsure, it was new and I needed to learn new things - which was hard.... but in the weighup between 4th and 3rd (or 3.5) 4th wins.

Wait until they come out with 5th Edition.. I will do the same thing I did before, weigh up the options and if 5th speaks to me as a player then I will pick that.

I have said this before, there are 50 year old 1st edition players who refuse to go 3rd let alone 4th and it is said that I will never sit at a table and play their game as I would love to get involved with such experience in the game.

An "evolution" involves gradual steps. An "evolution" of the game is not making an entirely new game with only minor similarities to it's predecessor and slapping the same name on the cover.