D&D 4E What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?

Damnit. I was hoping I was out of this thread.

Healing surges are about what AC was from 3e form 2e, a radical shift in how things were presented but overall a similar mechanic.

I can't agree with that.

The 2nd/3e switch in AC was just a mathematical re-ordering. The concepts were the same, and even the mechanics were the same. It was just that the equation had been re-ordered to get rid of the subtractions. (I did maths at university, with a focus on algebra. :) )

Healing surges, though, are a quite dfifferent beast. In 3e, healing is external to the character (excluding natural healing). A character generally couldn't heal himself and, furthermore, there was no limit to the amount of healing he could receive. If he had an endless supply of potions of cure light wounds, he could consume them all day.

By contrast, 4e healing is internal to the character. There's no need for an external agency - the character just takes a short rest and spends some surges. Moreover, the healing is limited - once you've used up your surges for the day, that's it.

That one really is radically different. Don't get me wrong; it's better. (Still not quite right, since the daily limit keeps the 15-minute adventuring day alive, but it is better.) But there's just not the same evolutionary development that you've laid out for AEDU powers.
 

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Damnit. I was hoping I was out of this thread.



I can't agree with that.

The 2nd/3e switch in AC was just a mathematical re-ordering. The concepts were the same, and even the mechanics were the same. It was just that the equation had been re-ordered to get rid of the subtractions. (I did maths at university, with a focus on algebra. :) )

Healing surges, though, are a quite dfifferent beast. In 3e, healing is external to the character (excluding natural healing). A character generally couldn't heal himself and, furthermore, there was no limit to the amount of healing he could receive. If he had an endless supply of potions of cure light wounds, he could consume them all day.

By contrast, 4e healing is internal to the character. There's no need for an external agency - the character just takes a short rest and spends some surges. Moreover, the healing is limited - once you've used up your surges for the day, that's it.

That one really is radically different. Don't get me wrong; it's better. (Still not quite right, since the daily limit keeps the 15-minute adventuring day alive, but it is better.) But there's just not the same evolutionary development that you've laid out for AEDU powers.

Alright I can see that, though I disagree that it brings back the 15m adventuring day. unless in your games you rund 4-6 fights in the span of 15m in game time.
 

Alright I can see that, though I disagree that it brings back the 15m adventuring day. unless in your games you rund 4-6 fights in the span of 15m in game time.

It's not that it brings it back. It's that it failed to get rid of it.

As long as the game retains any per day resources (healing surges, daily powers), the problem will remain. Only whereas in 3e it occurred when the Cleric (usually) ran out of spells for the day, it now occurs when the first PC uses his last Daily power of the day.

At slightly higher level, the break point seems to be whenever someone runs out of healing surges. But whichever it is, as soon as that happens, the party stops.

4e has made things marginally better. Especially at 1st level when the Wizard has more than 1-2 spells. But it hasn't solved the problem.
 

It's not that it brings it back. It's that it failed to get rid of it.

As long as the game retains any per day resources (healing surges, daily powers), the problem will remain. Only whereas in 3e it occurred when the Cleric (usually) ran out of spells for the day, it now occurs when the first PC uses his last Daily power of the day.

At slightly higher level, the break point seems to be whenever someone runs out of healing surges. But whichever it is, as soon as that happens, the party stops.

4e has made things marginally better. Especially at 1st level when the Wizard has more than 1-2 spells. But it hasn't solved the problem.

I do dislike daily resources, though I disagree that daily powers are a limiter, sure they can feel like it, no one likes not to have run out. but the only real limiter is the healing surge total of the party. Why I say party is that if you at least have a ritual caster there is a low level ritual that lets you shuffle around healing surges between PCs.

if you dont have a ritual caster they you are limited when the first PC uses up all its healing surges.
 

Exploring interests my character might have outside of encounters. Examples might be things such as building a castle, running a business, being a lord of a keep, raising & leading an army; etc.

I'm aware that some of these fall under skill challenges of some sort. However, I don't feel that skill challenges tend to give me the feedback I want. Likewise, while I feel that backgrounds are a very good idea, the type of feedback I want is more than +2 to a skill or a utility power. I'd like to delve into the details of performing those tasks and have rewards from the system which are more complex than that.

I'd also like all of my character's resources to be available at all times. I've seen suggestions elsewhere in which it was said to reward players money and such for something like a business, but to say they could only use the resources gained for non encounter related things.

Yeah, and I would certainly agree that 4e has done nothing system-wise to support that sort of stuff. SCs can be a tool for resolving various things related to those interests, but they don't in any way address things like "how much would it cost to build a castle." The extremely tight parcel system for wealth doesn't help either. Honestly I think the parcel system was a big mistake. Giving items levels was a pretty good idea since it makes it pretty obvious what the game expects in terms of progression in that area of character development, but fixing the amount of wealth characters get to a formula was a bad idea. No doubt it sounded clever when they invented it and it probably does wonders for formal play, but it sucks as a tool for use in normal campaigns. My suggestion to DMs is to take parcels with a huge grain of salt. Maybe keep track of the sum of treasure the party has gained and aim towards keeping it from going completely off from the expected curve, but don't worry about it. In terms of wealth my answer is basically it doesn't matter if a character has a lot of 'wealth' tied up in things like castles and whatnot. If you just assume that medieval society has very little liquidity then those things are not really fungible. The character can't really turn the castle into a magic sword, so it isn't really a game relevant kind of wealth.
 


I do dislike daily resources, though I disagree that daily powers are a limiter, sure they can feel like it, no one likes not to have run out. but the only real limiter is the healing surge total of the party. Why I say party is that if you at least have a ritual caster there is a low level ritual that lets you shuffle around healing surges between PCs.

if you dont have a ritual caster they you are limited when the first PC uses up all its healing surges.

I actually LIKE daily resources. Yes, they create a resource game, but that's good. It provides some meaning to player decisions. You could totally restrict everything to nothing but an encounter resource system, but then most encounters become pointless. It means the only tool left in the DM's quiver is some kind of narrative/story based consequence to everything.

With daily resources the focus becomes on creating a story that drives itself forward. I think that's an easier nut to crack. You can still have a leisurely pace to an adventure where such resources aren't all that critical if you want, but OTOH you can create overall tension much more easily. It really doesn't seem to me to be terribly hard to find ways to motivate players to press forward. Most such motivations are fairly natural and arise directly from the narrative anyway.

That all being said decoupling 'daily' resources from DAYS is a useful technique. I just grant the benefits of extended rests at narrative breaks and don't worry about the position of the sun in the sky. You can in the other direction always let characters recover surges or daily powers under various conditions. There are questions of how the DM decides to do that and the issue of players begging for recharges, but that could exist anyway.
 

1) Extremely long, boring combats

Not as much of a problem with raised monster damage. But this is mostly caused by DMs who make monsters fight to the death.

2) The differences between PCs and NPCs: This is arguably one of the worst things in the system, IMO.

Let me guess:
1: You play but don't DM.
2: You massively prefer to play casters.

Because that was only ever true for casters in 3.X. Fighters could never learn the Claw/Claw/Bite attack routine of a dragon. So why should wizards be able to learn almost everything?

If PCs and NPCs use the same rules then prep time is massive. And the DM is extremely limited in what sort of magic works - because if the PCs get their hands on it they can spam it and break the gameworld. On the other hand if you use different rules, prep time is limited and magic becomes ... magical. You get extraordinary effects. And combat magic is not what you can cast, it's what you can cast by rote.

3) Remember the Christmas Tree the designers said they were getting rid of? Does it look like they did? No? They lied? Why would anyone be mad about that?

They massively reduced it. The Big 6 became the Big 3, and carrying around 57 minor items doesn't happen much. So yes, it looks like they followed through - the christmas tree effect wasn't being well dressed, it was all the little twinklies and quite how many of them there are.

4) The errata.

4e without the errata is still a good game. With the errata is better.

5)Rituals I don't think many people use these.

Their loss.

The same money which you need to spend on magic weapons to stay on the random number generator and do useful things like "hit monsters" and "not die."

Like most people you're looking at the wrong rituals. Level 1 rituals can be cast by level 1 casters - but because of the exponential scaling, when you reach level 5 the cost of the low level rituals becomes trivial.

The utility siloing we were promised when 4e came out? Yeah, that never happened, because all the utility powers turned out to be combat related.

All of them? All of them? Well, I suppose Beguiling Tongue or Inspire Competence is if you count "Can help a third rate combat option that is the use of a skill" (i.e. Bluff or Intimidate) as combat related. Many are combat related, but even in the PHB1 there were utility powers like Beguiling Tongue which is only tangentally useful in combat.

And no, rituals do not let you interact with the world in any meaningful way - teleports are limited to where the DM says,

Or where you set up the receiving circle in advance. Takes strategy and planning.

you can't reshape continents,

Holy hell, that's your standard for interacting with the gameworld in a meaningful way? Mine counts Bloom - creating a 400ft blackberry patch - as interacting with the world in a meaningful way. If you do it in the right place anyway (bunching up an entire company of soldiers in one case, saving a villiage from famine in another).

Also, they take too long to cast, so if you're on the run and need to put up a magic circle between you and the demon, you can't because it takes 10 minutes!

In short you need to think and plan to use them. They aren't the snap-your-fingers solution magic once was. You run decoys, drawing the demon while setting up the circle.

Best of all, all the 'x image' illusions are now rituals, because player characters having actual, interesting abilities are not allowed in 4e land. I think I would trade an entire 4e class for the ability to use silent image at will in 4e land, and still come out ahead.

Silent Image At Will would be and is a gamebreaker. Even daily was bad enough (image of a fog cloud meaning it only worked one way, anyone?) As for being able to make an illusionary image as an encounter power, my last Wizard would have been very surprised to learn his level 2 utility power didn't exist.

How much power, in game, are each of these powers putting out? If your level 1 AT-WILL can kill level 30 creatures, what the hell does that mean in universe?

That it does damage. Give me enough time and a hypodermic syringe full of air and I can kill a hundred people. This is not a realism problem.

This is also a perfect way to introduce the "4e is a video-game" concept. You will note that in 4e-land, you can only attack objects and creatures the DM says you can attack

And the same in every other damn RPG out there. Your point? I wouldn't stat the wall until the PCs tried to attack it - but if they wanted to attack it, I would stat it almost immediately.

but not attack the vendor because he has the green dot.

In all seriousness, is this anything other than a completely theoretical problem based on a reading of the rules that no DM has ever used? Has any DM anywhere ever said "No, I haven't statted the vendor for combat therefore you can't attack him"? Other than doing a WoW parody?

It's a violation of common sense and is bad for the game.

Which is why you have DMs. If you want to attack the vendor, you 1-shot him. And then deal with the consequences.

Furthermore, it puts more power in the hands of the DM AND THAT IS BAD FOR THE GAME. For every good DM who will use this power wisely, there are a bunch of idiot DMs who will use it to lord it over their players and screw them over.

Really? They screw the PCs over by this? Rather than by excessively mighty DMPCs with 9th level spells? I know which one I've routinely seen threads about. And it isn't the one you're calling out.

Lastly, I will now break the game. Give a flying melee monster a bow. Now that it has a 40 square ranged attack, fly above the PCs and kite them to death.

And as DM I will break the game. Orbital metiorite strike. Followed by the moon falling onto the world. Rocks fall, everyone dies. This demonstrates one simple rule. If the DM is trying to break the game then the DM is a jackass.
 

Ooo! I missed that comment aobut not reshaping a continents.

Raise Land is a level 30 ritual

a DC 41 arcana check will let you raise a 10 mile radius amount of land 5 miles in the air permanently.

After that i'd probably let the player use the Shift Mote ritual to move the land.

Granted 10 miles is hardly a continent but eventually you'd get there.
 

A level 4 minion is worth 4750 XP, along using the DMG guidelines of XP to encounter level for a party of 5 it should be about a level 13 or 14 encounter itself.

Now just according to that a party shouldnt be facing a threat like that until at least level 10 or 11. so a level 1 party should never see a level 30 minion according to the guidelines of the game.

Uhm, what? A level 30 minion is worth 4750XP. A L4 minion is 75. I have no idea where you figured a L4 minion is worth 4750
 

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