D&D 4E What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?

[Crazy Jerome]

On the "4E for Conan" thing, I'd say that 4E is aimed squarely at emulating Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. It is uncanny. The only version that I think could sometimes do it better, is BECMI, with just the right players and DM and a deft touch with fiat. That the two main characters act as a team is no small help, here. The Lankhmarr stories are even filled with tension building up to critical fights where you get signficant time spent on the fight itself, and thus running commentary during running fights.

So like that form of BECMI, this means that 4E can kind of work for Conan, if you want your Conan edging into the Lankhmarr version of sword and sorcery. Or if you want to tweak the rules a bit to bring it back to the grittier version in Conan. But Conan is less about tactics during the fight and more about bringing ability to the fight--and knowing when to act, and to act fast. Once someone starts swinging, it is usually over fairly quick. This makes any version of D&D a worse fit than something like RuneQuest.

 

[wlmartin]

@ Warlocklord

How is 4e an evolution to 3e? I am not going to go through a point by point analysis of 4th over 3rd but it is a clear evolution. 3rd was stuck in the ways of old with BAB and restrictive classes, major overbalanced characters and a skill system that was nothing more than a waste of time

Yes, any game has to have its rules.. it is the skeleton for which the Roleplayers and the DM add to to create the muscles and flesh. A game with an entirely different skeleton but the same players and energy would create a completely different experience just as the different experience you get from a 3e and 4e game.

The 2 big things that support roleplay more in 4e are
1 : A clearer and simpler rules system so that players are thinking less about the mechanics of the game and more about how to use those mechanics to make the game work for them. All the maths is done for you, you dont need to worry about what bonuses you get, the power card has it on there
2 : A skills system that actually builds strong Roleplay experiences instead of being an excuse to power game. Use magic device? If that isnt something built for minmaxers I dont know what is. The skill system and skill challenges take the game from being about hack+slash and allows the players to do something more. You couldnt incoporate a skill challenge into the 3e system as the structure isnt designed that way, skills are built as add-ons for combat...

Yes, there are aspects of 3rd I still love... but 4e is a stronger entity.
I am not trying to convince you... I am just offering my side of the discussion. I used to love 3rd and would shout that from the rooftops. I am open minded and when I saw 4e I was unsure, it was new and I needed to learn new things - which was hard.... but in the weighup between 4th and 3rd (or 3.5) 4th wins.

Wait until they come out with 5th Edition.. I will do the same thing I did before, weigh up the options and if 5th speaks to me as a player then I will pick that.

I have said this before, there are 50 year old 1st edition players who refuse to go 3rd let alone 4th and it is said that I will never sit at a table and play their game as I would love to get involved with such experience in the game.

 

[WarlockLord]

@ wlmartin - Um, no 4e isn't. Evolution implies a common ancestry and similar traits.

1 - Um, yes you do. Because the game is set up with all kinds of fiddly math bits, from tracking the +2 to hit bonus from the laser cleric blasts along with the opponent's restrained penalty and the -2 you took to hit from the psychic controller. So "because it's all there on the power card" does not mysteriously protect you from the unholy terror of mathematics in a role-playing game. Don't forget all the saves, ongoing damage, and conditions that change on a round by round basis. Also, the game itself kills immersion with little things, like "squares" instead of "feet".

2- Um, what? If anything, the skill challenge system kills roleplay by extracting it out to "make some rolls, you don't need to talk to the guy if you don't want to" and making sure utility powers can't do anything outside the skills system, because this would be bad. Also, your skills really don't do jack, just like 3.5.

 

[wlmartin]

*mumbles to himself*
Sllort ad deef Tnod

WarlockLord - If there was a Competition to see who loved their chosen edition more, I would crown you Lord Emperor, Grand Puba & King of the land.


Now thats over with
Is it time for sushi now?

 

[Herschel]

I'd also like to ask how 4e supports roleplaying (with the rules only for combat) as opposed to say, 3e (hey look, pact roleplaying penalties! Codes of conduct!) but clearly I'm not a real roleplayer.

Because 4E doesn't bog you down with all the out-of-combat minutia and lets you do whatever you want with it. 3E absolutely SUCKED for role playing as it compartmentalized danged near everything within an inch of sanity and beyond. It almost felt like my character's colon would explode if I didn't take enough ranks in pooping, it was that overbearing.

4E simply says 'here's some basic skills if you feel you need to make a roll but otherwise just go to town and have fun'.

 

[wlmartin]

Because 4E doesn't bog you down with all the out-of-combat minutia and lets you do whatever you want with it. 3E absolutely SUCKED for role playing as it compartmentalized danged near everything within an inch of sanity and beyond. It almost felt like my character's colon would explode if I didn't take enough ranks in pooping, it was that overbearing.

4E simply says 'here's some basic skills if you feel you need to make a roll but otherwise just go to town and have fun'.

4e is to 3e what Windows Vista/7 is to Windows XP
(not completely different but enough fluffy cuddly buttons and easy to use menus so that even a kid can operate them... frustrating for people that grew up in DOS but in the end, we all want an easier life)

If WotC Devs came up and said
... right, its new edition time
We arent using D20s now, its a D42
We dont use Elfs, Dwarfs or Halflings any more, its Duplos, Karminors and Hat-Hats
We dont use Rogues, Wizards or Paladins now instead its Scallywags, Pointy-Hat Men and Crusaders
We got rid of all the cool monsters --- now we have similar ones but they all have different spelled names

They didnt, they took 3rd edition and made it better.
I guess a lot of people are going to disagree and they have a good remedy for expressing themselves... not buying the books. After all if enough people boycott 4e books and gear then they won't go anywhere.. but no, its the most popular edition since D&D first came out - nevermind!

I love D&D
I have loved every edition that came along but just as I gave my Sega Master system up for a Mega drive and the mega drive up for a playstation (and the chain goes on lol!) I recognise when they made it better and ... they did!

Are there things in 3e that we each love more than 4e... no doubt, the Devs can't cater for everyone but I think in the 3 years since it was released, they have done a good job to make it into the game it is now and I am only saddened that they arent getting their monies worth as a business and have to resort to making board games instead of minis and new core books but that is upto them, we are their audience and as much as we want to change the plot of our fav. tv shows... we have to go with the flow until they get cancelled and move on to the next big show

(Dollhouse - gone before its time! - RIP Alpha!)

I think I am going to have to block my browser from showing me this page or bribe an Admin to lock it because its never going to stop...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Lol, I'm not even sure who's on what side of what there anymore ya'll.

 

[mudlock]

the exact same logic could be employed for getting rid of the damage roll entirely (since it surely sucks to roll a (possibly rare) hit, only to get a lousy '1' for damage).

You'll notice that, in 4e, there's more damage comes from things other than rolling the die and/or you can get more dice to roll, than in 3e. And I think that's, at least in part, because of this logic.

 

[mudlock]

I could just sit around and not use rules and just make things up.

Wisdom falls from the mouths of fools, though they do not know it.

Sure, my wizard just blew up a continent, the fighter can randomly fly with his sword, and the cleric usurped his god, but that's OK cuz we're really roleplaying! We don't need any of that stupid rules stuff!

Did the first in 3.5, did the second in Exalted, and did the third in Amber (as backstory, actually.) All were fun, even though we were using the rules (such as they were) to shepherd the story along. And actually, those events were all more-driven by the setting than by the rules (and more by our story than by the setting.)

So.

Why are the rules for a PC different than the rules for an NPC in 4e? Why are they not the same, as they were in 3e?

Why can the bishop move as far as he wants along the diagonal? Why is he not restricted to just 2 squares, as he was in Shaturanga?

You know the answer, even if you protest that you don't.

 

[Argyle King]

Because 4E doesn't bog you down with all the out-of-combat minutia and lets you do whatever you want with it. 3E absolutely SUCKED for role playing as it compartmentalized danged near everything within an inch of sanity and beyond. It almost felt like my character's colon would explode if I didn't take enough ranks in pooping, it was that overbearing.

4E simply says 'here's some basic skills if you feel you need to make a roll but otherwise just go to town and have fun'.

What if I want to play a game style in which those out of combat details matter?

I suppose that's one of the places where I don't have an answer. DM Fiat works well in a lot of cases, but there are also a lot of game styles I like to explore in which that doesn't work well.

What are some of the solutions you would suggest?

note: Once again, I am not defending 3rd Edition. I'm instead curious how someone might further tweak 4th Edition to better suit some of the things I want to do.