D&D 4E What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?

And yet, curiously, I find myself being attacked as being "irrational" (not by you), described as a "diehard fan hugging (my) previous edition corebooks", and the like, simply because I reject 4e. Odd.

Didn't you know? D&D is a Religion to some people (not me) and you may as well be arguing new testament vs old testament and vice versa.

I have had similar discussions with devout Star Trek fans about the best series, Star Wars fans about the best movie and B5 fans about who was better Sheridan or Sinclair. As long as you have Geeks, you will have Geek Wars.

The amount of times I have stood at the Auction House in DDO and argued 4e vs 3.5e against 4e (because I had yet to actually learn the 4e rules).

Geek Wars!
 

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I'd hesitate to say that any version of D&D was aimed intentionally to emphasize either combat or RP more. Honestly I don't think there's anything mutually exclusive there anyway. 4e combat allows for a lot of variety for instance, which is actually PRO roleplay. I'm certain 3e didn't intentionally try to emphasize combat to the expense of anything else either. It would be odd to think so to me, its elaborate skill system was certainly an attempt to create richer characters. Likewise with 4e, certain things are a good bit more open and easier to do. Debates can legitimately rage on which one succeeded at what, both are thoughtful attempts to make a better game. I find 4e more effective for me. 3e was certainly a significant advance in a lot of ways over 2e though. It was a fun game, but I couldn't go back now. There are just too many things I'd have problems doing in any of the older editions. Greater simplicity and equal elegance is all I'd like to see now.
 

Bah, humbug! Skill challenges work quite effectively, and if your skill challenge forces people to sit on the sideline then design it correctly. lol. I've run tons of them and they were great fun.
4e is supposed to be about everyone getting to play and opt in and such. Even if we assume that class skills are well balanaced (they're not), there's still too much of a case where people can be left out, or end up only ever using their one, best skill.

I'm opposed to the current system which says, 'if you're not sure you should be rolling, don't roll, do nothing- or you might earn your party a failure point'. I'd much prefer a systme which explicitly says, "your turn is an asset and even if you aren't doing that well in this context, you can be sure that by using your turn, you are contributing'.

You know, I'm starting to think that the skill challenge framework works better for designing non-combat challenges than for running them.
<snip>.
Honestly, I just feel liek skill challenges are a missed opportunity, and should have been a lot more colaberative and improvisational.
 

4e is supposed to be about everyone getting to play and opt in and such. Even if we assume that class skills are well balanaced (they're not), there's still too much of a case where people can be left out, or end up only ever using their one, best skill.

I'm opposed to the current system which says, 'if you're not sure you should be rolling, don't roll, do nothing- or you might earn your party a failure point'. I'd much prefer a systme which explicitly says, "your turn is an asset and even if you aren't doing that well in this context, you can be sure that by using your turn, you are contributing'.

Honestly, I just feel liek skill challenges are a missed opportunity, and should have been a lot more colaberative and improvisational.

I would just say run them that way then. I do. I mean it is going to depend highly on the group how exactly you work things anyway. I can say to the people I play with "Hey, what do you think should be in here?" and the answers will be interesting.

Most skill challenges also need to really affect some kind of change in the plot that is at least somewhat meaningful. The N success before 3 failures is also just a very simple basic default mechanism. Both DMGs make infinitely clear that the concept is you can add any different mechanism in there you feel like you need. Just like you can invent terrain, monsters, etc for a combat encounter you can pick some specific mechanics for any given challenge, make up your own, use some 3rd party thing, etc.

You can use Obsidian if you wish, where everyone always rolls and the whole thing is like a group check, where everyone rolls 3 times. After the 3rd roll the total successes are checked against a 'DC' based on party size. I have found it is good for certain things, but not useful for others. The basic system does some things perfectly well, and there are other easy to figure out possibilities.

You can have a graph, which could be good if you cannot justify any kind of tally, but the issue with it is you've devolved things down to 1 toss of the dice again. This is why checks are normally pooled to whatever degree. Still, it is possible, though really better as a meta-challenge.

You can have neverending SCs too, like the way I would do Mike's Suderholm example in DMG2. Just drop checks off the end of the list, so when 3 in say any 7 checks are fails then the guard shows up to arrest you, etc.

Framing is important. You want to incorporate a hunk of action that provides some variety of subtasks that use different skills, but which makes sense to apply a pass/fail to. The 'timer' SC is always your basic fallback, or one that just steals surges (which I think is dull). Can we open the lock in time to intercept the Doppleganger? lol.

Negotiations make good SCs, there's negotiating, spying, dealing with the other guy's spies, being spies, etc. "You must get X piece of information from the enemy without them knowing you have it." Meanwhile also negotiating.

A book on the subject would be good, it would seem, but I really think it is kind of hard to explain, perhaps especially to a lot of people that have basically played D&D for the last 20 years, lol.

Don't be afraid to do things besides SCs anyway. You can make up quests that will surely require a certain number and types of skill checks to succeed on the way, with an XP reward equal to an encounter/challenge. Same thing just disguised as something else.
 

1) Extremely long, boring combats - This is a big one.

I agree with this one only so far, games can indeed become grindy if you are duking it out to the last hit point and monsters never surrender or run away. but the inclusion of the two previously mentioned elements my games have been running smoothly.

2) The differences between PCs and NPCs:

This one to me is the best aspect of 4e, I can make up a dozen monsters brand new in the time it took me to make up one in 3.5

As for monsters having unique powers that PCs cannot emulate? I say good riddance, it give me more freedom for making monsters more mysterious.

5)Rituals

I could take them or leave them, i deffinately wish my group used them more, it would make their lives easier.

6) The game world makes no sense

Okay on the note of a level 1 wizard hitting a level 30 minion with magic missile, i think you just dont know how the game world works.

At level 1 there are no level 30 minions. Minions represent something that your character can deal with in no time with a single hit.

level 30 minions only exist in the context of high level PCs fighting something that they could deal with in one hit.
 

Okay on the note of a level 1 wizard hitting a level 30 minion with magic missile, i think you just dont know how the game world works.

At level 1 there are no level 30 minions. Minions represent something that your character can deal with in no time with a single hit.

level 30 minions only exist in the context of high level PCs fighting something that they could deal with in one hit.

While that is the way things should work, it is by no means encoded in the game as written.
 

While that is the way things should work, it is by no means encoded in the game as written.

I don't know where that would be encoded except in the encounter guidelines where never would they say send a level 30 minion against anything lower than a level 23 character, ever. That isn't encoded in the game?

Monsters/NPCs are just pure tools. They are representations that you adopt as needed to make a fun story. There isn't any one specific consistency that has to be maintained. Only the story elements really matter, it would make no sense in 4e's design paradigm to restrict yourself to only representing Globkuz the orc chief as a Level 8 Elite Orc Captain forevermore. When the PCs are level 16 he can show up as a standard monster of that level, and can be no more than a minion at level 24 say.
 

While that is the way things should work, it is by no means encoded in the game as written.

A level 4 minion is worth 4750 XP, along using the DMG guidelines of XP to encounter level for a party of 5 it should be about a level 13 or 14 encounter itself.

Now just according to that a party shouldnt be facing a threat like that until at least level 10 or 11. so a level 1 party should never see a level 30 minion according to the guidelines of the game.
 

I don't know where that would be encoded except in the encounter guidelines where never would they say send a level 30 minion against anything lower than a level 23 character, ever. That isn't encoded in the game?

That is indeed where it would be discussed. However, those guidelines don't talk about the appropriateness of using minions against PCs of a given level. Sure, the level 1 wizard versus the level 30 minion is the most extreme example, but what about the level 1 wizard versus the level 5 minion? There's nothing in the guidelines to suggest that you shouldn't do that.
 

That is indeed where it would be discussed. However, those guidelines don't talk about the appropriateness of using minions against PCs of a given level. Sure, the level 1 wizard versus the level 30 minion is the most extreme example, but what about the level 1 wizard versus the level 5 minion? There's nothing in the guidelines to suggest that you shouldn't do that.

A level 5 minion? It is within the acceptable XP budget, so it works.

Now if you want to use a minion for an entire encounter your group is either going to love you or hate you... (or maybe be totally apathetic, i dont know your group.)
 

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