For Discussion: Reactions.

[Water Bob]

I guess what I'm saying is that this distinction is pretty meaningless to me. I don't understand how "shooting someone with a bow" is "proactive" or "overt," while "hitting someone with a sword" is "reactive."

In more simple language, it means that the GM won't have to ask the character what he's doing because he can only do something in response to a bad guy doing something to the character.

Thus, if a bad guy never comes within striking range, then the character doesn't get to use his Reaction.

The Reaction doesn't happen when the character necessarily wants it to. It is triggered by a bad buy producing a threat on the character.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The Reaction doesn't happen when the character necessarily wants it to. It is triggered by a bad buy producing a threat on the character.

Why is "a threat" defined as "entering melee range"?

 

[Water Bob]

Why is "a threat" defined as "entering melee range"?

Because the bad guy can attack you. When you can be attacked, you're under threat.

Note that this doesn't apply to distance weapons (with reach weapons? that's to be decided) because it requires too much overt action on the part of the character using the Reaction.

With the Reaction, we're only concerned with it when the character has an opportunity to respond to a situation, such as a bad guy getting so close that he could swing and hit you.





Remember, the Reaction is a version of the Ready Action that doesn't require as much forethought as the Ready Action does. At the same time, the Reaction is more limited in what it can be used for. So, you don't have to say that you're going to attack someone that approaches you--you're just able to do it if you did not use your Standard Action on your turn.

If you want to be more proactive with your action that you're saving, you can use either the Delay or the Ready Action. And, with the Ready Action, you have to be specific about the trigger.

 

[Sekhmet]

I think spell casters would have a field day, being able to react to battlefield situations before they happen.
Don't do it.

 

[Water Bob]

I had just about convinced myself to stick with RAW on this one, then I had another thought on a situation upcomig in my game that supports what my player's POV (as described in the OP).



Youv'e got the PCs running up an incline on a trail, rounding a bend, seeing the trees part, then coming upon the bad guys who are just finishing up a raid on some civilians from the PCs' clan.

The bad guys (two of them) hear the PCs coming before the PCs get there (GM fiat--it's logical, but I'll change it if the Player surprise me and do something different than just tear-ass through the woods and up the road to where the ambush took place).

As the PCs approach, I'll have one bad guy hid behind a wagon that is on its side. The other will be in sight of the PCs as they round the bend (I take it the bad buy heard the PCs coming and maybe saw movement through the forrest at the bend in the trail). The bad guy will put his foot on a downed commoner and thrust his spear up to her neck. He's going to use this downed commoner as leverage to get himself and his bad guy buddy out of the situation by keeping the PCs off of them, then bolting, starting a chase scene, at sometime after some parley (at least, that's how I think the encounter will go).





Here's the question that came up while pre-thinking this scenario: I can have the bad guy use a Ready Action on the commoner, using some trigger that will allow him to run the grandma through at the neck if the PCs try anything.

The problem with the Ready Action is that it needs a specific trigger.

And, what I'm I basically talking about in this thread? Yes--a Ready Action that has multiple triggers or no triggers (allow the character to do as he will when he wills it).

What kind of a trigger would you give the bad guy, with his spear up to the commoner? You could Ready the action and say the character will run her through if the PC move past point X (maybe that the far-end of the wagon).

But, what if a PC throws a hand axe or a spear at the bad guy. I'd allow the attack, of course, but if the PC misses on his attack, doesn't it seem logical that the bad guy might run grandma through right there and then?

Yet, that's not the trigger that was set-up.




So, what I'm getting at is that there are situations in the game where the Ready Action is appropriate--but that there are many triggers that would bog the game down if you asked a player to name them all.

Don't you think that, with his spear up to the common's neck, and a weary eye on the PC's action, that the bad guy should be able to ram grandma through and take off running away from the PC's just about any time he wants to?







EDIT: Forget the Reaction. We're just looking at the Ready Action here. And, the question is: Do we really need triggers?

In my example above, shouldn't the bad guy be able to run grandma through the neck just about anytime he wants to (after his initiative). I can envision the character just declaring a Ready Action with no trigger. He can run grandma through if someone attacks him, if a foe gets to close--he can do it any damn time he wants to. Maybe he thinks he's stalled too long and just wants to blot, kicking off the chase.

There are too many "triggers" to list.

How would you run this scenario?







EDIT 2: Here's another simple example. You've got an archer, nocked and ready to let loose on anybody who comes through an open doorway.

The archer could ready an action to shoot at the first person through the doorway.

But, what if the first person through is a comrade?

Or, maybe it's an escaped NPC, slave of the PC's foe?



OK, so you say you'll ready the bow attack for the first foe who comes through the doorway, but then, a goblin comes through and not the bugbear the archer was hoping for. The archer can't hold his shot a while longer? He has to shoot? Why?



OK, so you say you'll ready the bow attack for the first bugbear to come through the doorway, but then, three of them come through and the third one--the big one that you've hit before--is the one you really want to shoot at.



OK, so you say that you'll fire at the big bugbear that you've shot before when he comes through the doorway, but he never comes. Two other bugbears, do, though.



In each case, shouldn't the archer be able to make a quick second decision as to whether to fire or not? If the archer really wanted to shoot at the bugbear, but saw three humans come the doorway, shouldn't the archer be able to say, "OK, I'm firing at the second human that appeared" and just forget the bugbear even though the bugbear is why he drew and pointed at the doorway in the first place?

Just how flexible should the Ready Action be?

 

[JamesonCourage]

I already use the Ready Action pretty liberally, but getting rid of the "if X occurs certainly is interesting." They now become, "I ready to cast a spell" or "I ready to attack" instead of "I ready to cast a spell if an enemy casts" or "I ready to attack an enemy if they come within range" which is how I normally run them.

 

[Water Bob]

I already use the Ready Action pretty liberally, but getting rid of the "if X occurs certainly is interesting." They now become, "I ready to cast a spell" or "I ready to attack" instead of "I ready to cast a spell if an enemy casts" or "I ready to attack an enemy if they come within range" which is how I normally run them.

I was thinking about it being to powerful a move. What might seem fair is...

(what about this)

...the player, instead of stating a trigger, just states what weapon he will ready.

A character could nock and arrow and ready a bow.

...ready his sword.

...read a specific spell. "I Read Magic Missile."



In my scenario, the bad buy is readying his spear.

That could work, huh? And not be too powerful?

You skip the trigger but name the weapon.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I was thinking about it being to powerful a move. What might seem fair is...

(what about this)

...the player, instead of stating a trigger, just states what weapon he will ready.

A character could nock and arrow and ready a bow.

...ready his sword.

...read a specific spell. "I Read Magic Missile."



In my scenario, the bad buy is readying his spear.

That could work, huh? And not be too powerful?

You skip the trigger but name the weapon.

As long as you don't involve mobility (partial charge with my sword), than I don't think it'd unbalance my home game. If you allow it to involve mobility, than it might. Though I don't think it'd be particularly bad for my group at all, as I already use pretty liberal use of the mechanic.

As always, play what you like

 

[Water Bob]

As long as you don't involve mobility (partial charge with my sword), than I don't think it'd unbalance my home game. If you allow it to involve mobility, than it might. Though I don't think it'd be particularly bad for my group at all, as I already use pretty liberal use of the mechanic.

I'm not sure about not allowing the move. First off, the way the rules are written, you can use a partial charge with a Ready Action (doesn't meet the requirements of the partial charge because the character is not limited in action).

The key, I think, is for the player to be specific about what he is readying--not the trigger. Thus, a player could have his character Ready a Move action. Maybe there's a squad of hobgoblins coming over the rise and the player wants his character to get a good look a them before bolting back towards the friendly lines.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

When a characters turn comes up in the initiative order he is in effect reacting to anything and everything that has happened in the combat up to this point. Initiative is primarily about determining the order of resolution of actions, not necessarily which one actually takes place first. Even if one action takes place first by the tick of the clock another characters action might be resolved first (an attack readied as a RESPONSE to an expected attack).

Although all the turns of all the participants in a battle are largely assumed to be simultaneous in a given round, we use initiative order to establish a sensible means of RESOLVING all those simultaneous actions one at a time. On your characters turn it is generally in your best interests to ACT. You don't wait for an opponent to try and hit you - YOU pick an opponent to hit and kill BEFORE he can do likewise. Given the way all these actions are resolved by turns it does introduce the possibility that you might want to prepare some more specific response to an opponents action - and that is what the Ready action is for. Using it, you give up your ability to act unopposed NOW, on your own turn, for the ability to act later, when it is NOT your turn, by placing specific conditions upon what will trigger your action later. IF your action is triggered this then rearranges the order of initiative as necessary. If your action is not triggered then you blew your opportunity to act when you had the chance - ON your turn.

For purposes of sensibly resolving your characters actions on your turn other characters ARE where they ARE when your turn begins - even though they might be moving at insane speeds or not moving at all. For ease of actually getting things resolved and moving the game forward every participant moves one at a time on their individual turn. Otherwise the game would have to proceed one 5' move at a time with every possible action listed by how many seconds or partial seconds it takes to perform and having that determine what gets resolved first.

The order of initiative is not a secret. After you've rolled you know where you are in the initiative sequence (or at worst it takes the first full round to know when the opponents actually act). But when YOUR turn comes up you know who has taken their turn and who hasn't. All you have to do is choose your actions and targets based on that knowledge - just as all your allies and opponents have to.

The Ready action and attacks of opportunity pretty well cover any needed exceptions to resolving your own actions only on your turn.