It's a trap! Builds that seem good, but...

[StreamOfTheSky]

While 3E VoP was still a trap for a monk, at least it GAVE you things. It feels wrong even mentioning it in the same breath as PF VoP, as if the former is a "trap" then the latter is so so so much beyond "trap" that we'd need to invent a new word for it.

But I can understand your meaning now. Monk with no worldly possessions is definitely a type of character that's popular and has a strong background in media.

I'm not sure if there's an actual thread of every trap, as there are so very many of them, and a lot are a matter of opinion. I'd be shocked if there's one for PF specifically, PF just doesn't have nearly the character optimization presence and analysis as 3E did. Feel free to start a "Trap Compendium" if you want.

 

[SnowleopardVK]

But for me, I can't see anything as a "trap" unless my choosing it would make me unable to enjoy my RPG in any way. Is there such a feat?

Agreed, and I haven't personally run into anything that's managed to take my enjoyment of the game aside from the actions and attitudes of other players or a DM.

Heck I've even played a ranged rogue before, which was one of the specific examples given earlier of a "trap".

It was quite fun as I recall.

 

[Dingo333]

1) Your regular weapon damage is 4d6, which would give you 8d6 worth of damage in one swing (this is my Pathfinder character's situation);

2) Due to the -5 penalty with each secondary strike, and your poor rolling luck, you almost NEVER hit a monster except with your first attack at full BAB. If your party never buffs you with any abilities to make additional attacks at full BAB (like haste), you could very likely have only 1 good chance to hit all bad guys ... so you might as well do lots of damage.

What's the "trap", in the above situations?

The trap depends on the crit range of the weapon. I know there are only a few weapons with it, but say this weapon crits on a 15-20/x2 (keen or some other effect). In this case, the vital strike is the trap.
If you VS, and crit, you get 12d6.
If you VS and do not, you get 8d6.

If you Full attack and crit once, you get 12d6,
if you crit twice, you get 16d6.
If you do not crit at all but hit with both, you get 8d6,
if you hit once, you get 4d6

So, VS gives us 8-12 d6 hit
FA gives us 4-16 d6.

You have a wider amount of damage you can do in the FA, but with the cost of half the damage minimum. There is also DR but that is often rare enough at low levels that we do not need to worry about it here

Now, for the -5 penalty. Lets assume the weapon is not criting every 4 attacks. A CR 6 monster should have an AC around 19. +1bab, +2Str, +1MWK/magic, +1WF. +5 to hit with the second hit. means a 14 or better to hit the target. Not terrible, and to me, worth the risk of the 4d6+STR(3 in this case with a 2 handed weapon)

Lets look at a CR 11 enemy and fast forward the character to lvl 11 as well.
CR 11 has AC 25

Lvl 11 player;
+18(11Bab+3Str+2Magic+2WF) need a 7
+13(6Bab+3Str+2Magic+2WF) need a 12
+8(1Bab+3Str+2Magic+2WF) need a 17

so you are likely to miss with attack 3, but, the other 2 will hit. is the 4d6+5 worth losing for the very likely 8d6+10 when an IVS will only get you 12d6+5

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Heck I've even played a ranged rogue before, which was one of the specific examples given earlier of a "trap".

How were you sneak attacking after round 1?

It was quite fun as I recall.

A trap can still be fun. I really enjoyed my DMPC that was meant to be a parody of the "must keep this NPC alive" trope -- normally in games or movies, such a character is irritatingly reckless and babysitting him is a major pain -- this NPC was spec'd out in every single way possible to save his own skin, didn't have a single offensive spell or ability whatsoever, and made it perectly clear he'd be fine using the party as meat shields to cover his retreat if things went south. He was amazingly cowardly and paranoid. The party needed half an hour just to find him hidden in his ridiculously trap-laden home. Aside from his skill at decyphering scripts that lead the party to needing him, he provided absolutely nothing to the party whatsoever and was 100% useless in combat. He was a blast to roleplay, though.

You don't have to be good at anything or even provide any use to the party at all for it to be a fun character. Doesn't make X not a trap, though.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But for me, I can't see anything as a "trap" unless my choosing it would make me unable to enjoy my RPG in any way. Is there such a feat?

By this logic, absolutely nothing is a trap, because even playing a one-armed, one-eyed, lamed kobold minion can result in a fun RPG session.

While the scope creep in the definition of "trap" may make it slightly less useful for purposes of discussion, deciding instead that the word is absolutely meaningless is even worse.

You mention Vital Strike as not seeming like a trap option to you, but as SotS has pointed out, you're already relying on one houserule / misinterpretation to make it as useful as it is for you.

The problem for Vital Strike is that it works best for creatures who only have a single, big attack - things like T-Rexes, or other natural weapon-using creatures. This generally does not describe PC types, who past a certain point rely more on bonus damage from other sources than their weapons' base dice, it works much less effectively, especially since most of those bonuses apply on their interative attacks.

 

[Dingo333]

How were you sneak attacking after round 1?

Well, depending on the level, invisibility is cheap

Vanish is about 1k for a wand 2nd caster level
Greater invisibility cast on you will do it even better

Then there is a Stealth check+a good distance, ie, maximum sneak attack range for a sniper variant rouge(30+10 per 3 levels) (any ideas what kinda penalties there are to being spotted 40ft away in a battle, there is a reason only half an army's archers were actually on the battle field)

Continuing, sniper goggles are a great investment, 20k to sneak attack at any distance, and a +2 per sneak attack die to damage after they get to 30ft or less

Optimal? probably not, but it is not a trap imho.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The 'problem" with Vital Strike, IMO, is that it's a fallback option. It's the feat to use when conditions aren't ideal (full attacking or charging) to...suck less. It reminds me ALOT of the 3E feat Close Quarters Fighting. In case you don't know, CQF feat let you get an AoO on someone trying to grapple you. Even if they had Imp. Grab/Grapple. And if they did have that and you hit, you got to add your damage to your opposed grapple check. It was really really handy. Because if you're an archer, 2H weapon user, mage, or TWF...being grappled is bad. But I've never seen anyone take it, and I myself have never taken it. I always wanted to take it, but there was always some other feat that was better or that boosted my "when things go right" combat schtick, and I ended up passing up on it.

Because, ultimately, fall back options aren't sexy. And a lot of people choose feats based on the sexy. Say I could use my feat to take VS or Shield Slam. The latter gives me an OMG so badass punt ability when I hit someone. Is it essential to my build? Hell no! But it's really cool and I can do my normal schtick without disruption and benefit from it. The former actually could prove very important if things go south (what if I get slowed and only have a standard attack each turn?). But its boring. Really boring. And it completely messes up my schtick if I want to use it.


Just my view of why VS is underappreciated and underused.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, depending on the level, invisibility is cheap

Vanish is about 1k for a wand 2nd caster level
Greater invisibility cast on you will do it even better

Then there is a Stealth check+a good distance, ie, maximum sneak attack range for a sniper variant rouge(30+10 per 3 levels) (any ideas what kinda penalties there are to being spotted 40ft away in a battle, there is a reason only half an army's archers were actually on the battle field)

Continuing, sniper goggles are a great investment, 20k to sneak attack at any distance, and a +2 per sneak attack die to damage after they get to 30ft or less

Optimal? probably not, but it is not a trap imho.

Yes, if you're willing to burn through money you can get a single SA per round. If you're willing to spend a TON of money, do an Arcane Trickster multiclass, or beg the party caster really really hard, you can possibly even full attack like a normal person. but that's an awful lot of work/money/begging for something so simple. PF went out of their way to make ranged SA very very hard. Blinking doesn't work. Grease doesn't work (you can ready to shoot on the foe's turn, but if you want to blow two standard actions for one SA, just get a wand of vanish). Throwing flasks doesn't work. It's nuts!

You are right that sniper goggles + being too far away to be seen almost singlehandedly makes a ranged rogue viable. But that's a long wait just to be able to full attack from range w/ SA reliably. And in plenty of circumstances, distancing yourself so far from the party in order to do this may not work out / be wise.

And unfortunately Sniper Rogue is a trap. As written, the sniper goggles make the archetype's main feature completely obsolete, and you can buy them at a point where the archetype's only giving you another +30 ft anyway. Personally, I think Sniper Rogue's extended SA range should apply to the sniper goggle's +2 damage per die range so that it actually serves a purpose. But as written, that is not the case.

 

[Systole]

I think the qualifications of trap build are:

• Looks good up front.
• Probably still workable in the early and middle stages.
• Is clearly subpar if not outright worthless at later levels.

Fire wizards are a good example I think, because fire wizards are great at low levels ... then you start hitting spell resist and fire resist. They're a build that lulls you into believing you're going to be a superpower at level 10.

That said, there's nothing wrong with playing a trap build, if you know your adventure is stopping at level 4, or maybe you just want to play a sub-suboptimal character for a change. There's a guy playing a commoner and having a blast, for Pete's sake. Warning: Clicking link will suck away hours of your life.

 

[Dingo333]

Yes, if you're willing to burn through money you can get a single SA per round. If you're willing to spend a TON of money, do an Arcane Trickster multiclass, or beg the party caster really really hard, you can possibly even full attack like a normal person. but that's an awful lot of work/money/begging for something so simple. PF went out of their way to make ranged SA very very hard. Blinking doesn't work. Grease doesn't work (you can ready to shoot on the foe's turn, but if you want to blow two standard actions for one SA, just get a wand of vanish). Throwing flasks doesn't work. It's nuts!

To enable a main feature, well, sorry fighter, your magic weapon maces you a trap. Sorry wizard, your spells make you a trap. I dont think it is all that bad to spend money to enhance a main feature of your class.

Also, I do know the goggles and the archtype do not work together, thus those were separate points in my post

And, if the wizard is not willing to buff the rouge, why does he have the spell (if they take it). Rouge makes the most use out of the invisibility spells, (almost) pointless casting it on any of the other martial classes, and invisibility is better to cover your escape anyway, longer duration.