Do grognards have to be jerks?

[Aberzanzorax]

don't think there's anyone on the Paizo forums who is a more outspoken supporter of 4e than myself. I think most active posters there would agree. I don't post vitriol against Pathfinder or Paizo. In fact, more often than not I'm defending Paizo from its own "fans" who have latched onto something new to whine about (see: last week's announcement that they'd be doing random minis).

So that observation rings as hollow as can be.

So it'd be ok for me to go onto the WotC forums and find a thread that is "the most overrated RPGs of all time" and name 4e, saying that it's an ok game, but I think it's the most overrated for some other reason?

Heck, even I wouldn't even say that here, on more neutral ground.

Yet someone said that over on the Paizo forums.

 

[Mournblade94]

The fact that you believe Pathfinder or Paizo is equally attacked is proof of yours.

Incorrect. I understand the rudeness manifests on both sides as there is inadequate evidence to make any correlation. For every anecdote one person gives from one being rude, there is a countering anecdote. That leads one to see that neither side has a monopoly on rudeness. You notice the 4e more so that has skewed your view. I notice that 4e avengers are rude, but I understand that no correlation can be made.

 

[Dannager]

So it'd be ok for me to go onto the WotC forums and find a thread that is "the most overrated RPGs of all time" and name 4e, saying that it's an ok game, but I think it's the most overrated for some other reason?

As long as you weren't vitriolic in the process, sure.

Heck, even I wouldn't even say that here, on more neutral ground.

I'm glad to hear that you don't believe 4e is the most overrated RPG of all time.

Yet someone said that over on the Paizo forums.

Yes. I did.

And the reason I gave was that Pathfinder is a fine game, but it was hyped (largely be the fans) as something close to a second coming. What we got was a game that was a moderate improvement of 3.5. I mean, it got more hype than most totally new games get, much less new editions, and this wasn't really either.

So was this your goal? To call me out for being vitriolic to Pathfinder or Paizo by pointing to a post of mine where I said that Pathfinder is a solid game but that its fans probably hyped it more than it deserved? Cuz, I mean, yeah man, I was flying off the handle there.

 

[Dannager]

Incorrect. I understand the rudeness manifests on both sides as there is inadequate evidence to make any correlation. For every anecdote one person gives from one being rude, there is a countering anecdote. Kind of leads one to see that neither side has a monopoly on rudeness.

No, it just leads one to see anecdotes.

 

[Herschel]

It's been brought up before, but I would guess many of the 3.x/Pathfinder players that are vitriolic towards 4E are that way due to WotC's off-putting (to some 3.5 fans) marketing campaign leading up to the game's release.

Heck, one of the advertisements/videos was so harsh (in the opinion of some 3.5 fans) towards those criticizing 4E that the attitude may be along the lines of "well, if you think so little of my opinion, I'll be happy to do whatever I can to show you how much of a mistake you (WotC) are making by telling everyone I meet". In other words, WotC's behavior may have been the real cause of the edition wars. Rather than try to defuse criticism, WotC laughed at it (in the opinion of some of those upset).

For those that went to Gen Con - how was the interraction between Pathfinder and 4E fans this year?

I think WotC would be best off with some sort of olive branch to those they've disenfranchised. No, they won't win everyone back, but some humble pie might do some good with the critics.

Of course, doing something well-received with old editions would be a great thing too....

I (and many others) would argue that the wild overreaction of "fans" (the word here used very loosely) to the marketing in question is just as responsible, if not moreso (since about thirty seconds of actual thought regarding the marketing in question made it clear that it wasn't out to insult anyone). I absolutely blame the anti-4e crowd for the out-of-control state the edition wars reached - there's only one edition being warred against, and only one group on the march. The rest is a behind-the-gates defense.

Thankfully, we're mostly done arguing over editions. Now all we have to argue over is who's to blame for the damage that's been done.

Exactly Dannager. It was more like...

Fans: "D&D is the classic game but this, this and that are bad for the game and it would be a much better game if something was done about it 'cause this stuff really sucks."

WotC: "We've heard you and changed many of the things you said were bad and have made a much better game."

Fans: "WHAT?!?!?!?!?!How dare you change and disrespect my game!!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

[Dannager]

Exactly Dannager. It was more like...

Fans: "D&D is the classic game but this, this and that are bad for the game and it would be a much better game if something was done about it 'cause this stuff really sucks."

WotC: "We've heard you and changed many of the things you said were bad and have made a much better game."

Fans: "WHAT?!?!?!?!?!How dare you change and disrespect my game!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Bingo.

Of course, this is where the anti-4e crowd brings up the dragon poop cartoon and tries to convince us that it was WotC telling us that they want to crap all over the criticisms of 4e, rather than a comical satire of both sides of the edition wars.

 

[Herschel]

Actually the so called anti-4e crowd has a fully supported game now, so there is no reason to decry about WOTC.

So why do they still spew in the general forum AND come to the 4E forum?

 

[Mournblade94]

No, it just leads one to see anecdotes.

Perhaps for those not used to working with data.

 

[Mournblade94]

So why do they still spew in the general forum AND come to the 4E forum?

I can guarantee you have never seen my name in a 4e forum. Except when I was learning it when it first was released.

I would imagine those individuals are the examples of 'jerks'. 'They' are not the PAthfinder or other edition crowds. They are individuals.

I have not been in a 4e forum for years.

 

[Mournblade94]

Exactly Dannager. It was more like...

Fans: "D&D is the classic game but this, this and that are bad for the game and it would be a much better game if something was done about it 'cause this stuff really sucks."

WotC: "We've heard you and changed many of the things you said were bad and have made a much better game."

Fans: "WHAT?!?!?!?!?!How dare you change and disrespect my game!!!!!!!!!!!!"

This example you provided, shows it pleased some fans and disappointed others. Perhaps the very vocal fans of what needed to be changed were the future fans of 4e. The fans in the latter part of your post could very well be the fans that saw the game they were happy with being changed, when they saw no reason for those changes.

It hardly shows this vaunted correlation between grognards and jerks.