Do grognards have to be jerks?

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Heck, one of the advertisements/videos was so harsh (in the opinion of some 3.5 fans) towards those criticizing 4E that the attitude may be along the lines of "well, if you think so little of my opinion, I'll be happy to do whatever I can to show you how much of a mistake you (WotC) are making by telling everyone I meet". In other words, WotC's behavior may have been the real cause of the edition wars.

I (and many others) would argue that the wild overreaction of "fans" (the word here used very loosely) to the marketing in question is just as responsible, if not moreso (since about thirty seconds of actual thought regarding the marketing in question made it clear that it wasn't out to insult anyone). I absolutely blame the anti-4e crowd for the out-of-control state the edition wars reached - there's only one edition being warred against, and only one group on the march. The rest is a behind-the-gates defense.

Thankfully, we're mostly done arguing over editions. Now all we have to argue over is who's to blame for the damage that's been done.
 

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I (and many others) would argue that the wild overreaction of "fans" (the word here used very loosely) to the marketing in question is just as responsible, if not moreso (since about thirty seconds of actual thought regarding the marketing in question made it clear that it wasn't out to insult anyone). I absolutely blame the anti-4e crowd for the out-of-control state the edition wars reached - there's only one edition being warred against, and only one group on the march. The rest is a behind-the-gates defense.
Is the dye in your glasses made from actual rose petals?
 

Something else that I wanted to say I have to disagree that it is bad for gamers to post their opinions on mainstream media because it might drive people away. If any article on any subject has a place for comments there are going to be people who post negative things. People have opinions and the internet has encouraged the practice of sharing them.

Gamers (in general) have a bad habit of being unable to moderate their opinions. Comments in mainstream articles on D&D look more like what you'd find in the Politics section's comments than what you'd find in your average Entertainment article's comments.
 


I (and many others) would argue that the wild overreaction of "fans" (the word here used very loosely) to the marketing in question is just as responsible, if not moreso (since about thirty seconds of actual thought regarding the marketing in question made it clear that it wasn't out to insult anyone). I absolutely blame the anti-4e crowd for the out-of-control state the edition wars reached - there's only one edition being warred against, and only one group on the march. The rest is a behind-the-gates defense.

Thankfully, we're mostly done arguing over editions. Now all we have to argue over is who's to blame for the damage that's been done.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt...
 

I (and many others) would argue that the wild overreaction of "fans" (the word here used very loosely) to the marketing in question is just as responsible, if not moreso (since about thirty seconds of actual thought regarding the marketing in question made it clear that it wasn't out to insult anyone). I absolutely blame the anti-4e crowd for the out-of-control state the edition wars reached - there's only one edition being warred against, and only one group on the march. The rest is a behind-the-gates defense.

Thankfully, we're mostly done arguing over editions. Now all we have to argue over is who's to blame for the damage that's been done.

Unless you can point to these many others who agree with you, maybe you just want to speak for yourself. Because I (and many others) felt the reaction to be appropriate to the actions of WotC at the time.

I spent far, far more than thirty seconds thinking about this. I was a news guide on the WotC forums during the transition. No, what you claim was clear was anything but.

I ABSOLUTELY blame WotC for the out-of-control state, and many will agree with me, (see how silly that statement is?) of the edition wars.



Finally, no one who plays 4e has EVER said negative things about earlier editions? They have never claimed the earlier editions were flawed, that 4e was objectively "better", that fighters used to be "worthless" and now are "finally fun to play", etc. etc. ad infinitum? I'm not going to do it unless requested (and if I did, I'd do it without links to the names/specific posts) but if you like I can come up with dozens of attacks on earlier editions from 4e fans.


You're entitled to your opinion that grognards are the problem and 4e fans are sweet innocent victims, but until you provide a shred of evidence, I think that your opinion will be dismissed as just your opinion, and nothing more. Further, I think the vitriol and anger I've seen from 4e fans on the paizo boards is far, far more convincing than your "4e fans don't attack, they just defend" position.
 

Unless you can point to these many others who agree with you, maybe you just want to speak for yourself.

No, actually, I think I will mention that we've had entire threads focusing on the wild overreaction of fans to WotC's marketing, and I think I will point out that I was far from the only person arguing that position.

Because I (and many others) felt the reaction to be appropriate to the actions of WotC at the time.
Yes. People who overreact are often unaware or willing to deny that they overreacted at all.

I spent far, far more than thirty seconds thinking about this. I was a news guide on the WotC forums during the transition. No, what you claim was clear was anything but.
Sure it was. I saw the marketing.

I ABSOLUTELY blame WotC for the out-of-control state, and many will agree with me, (see how silly that statement is?) of the edition wars.
You're free to believe that, and I'm free to believe the opposite. Neither of us has to take the other seriously.

Finally, no one who plays 4e has EVER said negative things about earlier editions?
I'm surprised you even decided to start down this path, since I'm sure you know that's not what I actually think.

They have never claimed the earlier editions were flawed, that 4e was objectively "better", that fighters used to be "worthless" and now are "finally fun to play", etc. etc. ad infinitum? I'm not going to do it unless requested (and if I did, I'd do it without links to the names/specific posts) but if you like I can come up with dozens of attacks on earlier editions from 4e fans.
You absolutely can. The difference is, where you see dozens of attacks on earlier editions from 4e fans, I see thousands of attacks on 4e from the anti-4e crowd over the last few years.

Here's what edition wars look like to me: threads where it's okay to crap on a company for doing something that no other company would be crapped on for. Blog after blog running post after post of rally cry after rally cry for the downfall of 4e and WotC. Mainstream media articles on D&D with comments sections flooded with anti-4e bile. Self-important calls for boycotts. People rejoicing in the wake of anything that might make it look like 4e is doing less than whatever is expected of it. The "Friends Don't Let Friends Play 4e" campaign.

That's what an edition war looks like. What you're talking about, where a handful of 4e fans occasionally criticize editions of a game they used to play? That's nothing.

It's hard to see this as anything more than a shameful attempt at covering the ass of a segment of the community that refuses to take any responsibility for the tremendous damage that they've caused. You can blame WotC all day long, but they already have that responsibility - if they had a hand in fracturing the community, they've paid for it in lost customers. The hate-filled members of the community who want nothing more than to see a game they don't enjoy burn? No skin off their backs; they just buy Pathfinder now instead.

You're entitled to your opinion that grognards are the problem and 4e fans are sweet innocent victims, but until you provide a shred of evidence, I think that your opinion will be dismissed as just your opinion, and nothing more.
I'm fine with that. No one's got any evidence for any of this, so it's not like I have a bar to hit, here.

Further, I think the vitriol and anger I've seen from 4e fans on the paizo boards is far, far more convincing than your "4e fans don't attack, they just defend" position.
I don't think there's anyone on the Paizo forums who is a more outspoken supporter of 4e than myself. I think most active posters there would agree. I don't post vitriol against Pathfinder or Paizo. In fact, more often than not I'm defending Paizo from its own "fans" who have latched onto something new to whine about (see: last week's announcement that they'd be doing random minis).

So that observation rings as hollow as can be.
 
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OD&D, 4e, or anything in between or related sideways - it doesn't matter to me as long as you take a friggin' shower and groom yourself regularly. :lol:
 

Gamers (in general) have a bad habit of being unable to moderate their opinions. Comments in mainstream articles on D&D look more like what you'd find in the Politics section's comments than what you'd find in your average Entertainment article's comments.

You have obviously never really posted at SySf forums. Or on Blaster. OMG the nerdrage over comics, Star Wars prequel series, BSG makes gamers look tame.
 


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