Do grognards have to be jerks?

[Elf Witch]

Bringing it up in the line before the event IS rude. Approaching him after the event and engaging in a conversation about what they liked and disliked would be the proper course of action. If they disliked something that system x does differently, then that would be the time to bring it up. Otherwise you're the gamer version of a religious pusher.

No it is not. It depends on what is said and how it is said and if the person kept it up even when the person he was talking to was uninterested. Otherwise it could simply be a discussion.

Several years ago I was at a game store waiting to see a demo on Dragon Dice. The person sitting next to me started talking about another dice he game he played and enjoyed and we had a nice discussion on the differences between the two.

 

[Mr. Patient]

No it is not. It depends on what is said and how it is said and if the person kept it up even when the person he was talking to was uninterested. Otherwise it could simply be a discussion.

The key thing here is, the person he was talking to had never played D&D. He was the proverbial fresh-faced newbie, out to see what this game was all about. And pretty much the first thing he hears is some jerk telling him that nah, he doesn't want to play the game that he's standing in line for, because that game sucks. Even if you believe that, that's not how you make new gamers, which I think we all agree is something we want. Let the guy at least play the damn game first, so that he can form his own opinions.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I have encountered the exact same thing in a game store - I was running a Pathfinder game to illustrate the system (two 4 hour sessions, not a campaign) and a 4e player did much the same thing.

In a game store where the owners and a goodly number of the regulars are still playing 3e after the shop closes. (Not 3.5 - 3e.) They still have a D6 Star Wars game running during store hours. The term 'stink eye' does not begin to describe the looks he received... and it was his first trip to that store.

And like some 4e bashers he had never really looked at the game, but was parroting. (At least I read through the 4e rules before deciding that they really weren't aimed at me, playing a game merely confirmed that.)

So yeah, knee jerk jerks come in all sizes and flavors. The 4e player was a jerk, but the behavior engendered in the 3.X crowd in return was hardly less so. (When I am the most conciliatory gamer in the room there is a... problem.) Afterwards I felt like washing out my mouth with soap - I told him that 'Pathfinder is more like D&D than you've been told.' He sat in on the session, but I much doubt me that he was converted.

About folks calling 4e a boardgame... early on I actually heard that being said as a good thing - that there was less ambiguity. Certainly there are boardgame elements, perhaps more so than 3.X. (Combat with grids and miniatures or tokens is a boardgame element, regardless of edition.)

The Auld Grump

 

[Mr. Patient]

So yeah, knee jerk jerks come in all sizes and flavors.

Certainly. The point I was trying to make, following Hussar's point, is that edition warring is all well and good (well, not all well and good) when we're talking amongst ourselves. But edition warring in front of unsuspecting CNN readers and Game Day walkups is completely counterproductive and rude.

 

[Elf Witch]

The key thing here is, the person he was talking to had never played D&D. He was the proverbial fresh-faced newbie, out to see what this game was all about. And pretty much the first thing he hears is some jerk telling him that nah, he doesn't want to play the game that he's standing in line for, because that game sucks. Even if you believe that, that's not how you make new gamers, which I think we all agree is something we want. Let the guy at least play the damn game first, so that he can form his own opinions.

The key thing here was he was being a jerk not that he was talking to the newbie in line.

My point that I am trying to make is it is more what you say then when you say it.

Th guys with my friend were wrong because of how they said it. If they had told her the pluses of playing 4E and stuck to that it would have been okay. But telling her she was wrong to join a group of friends for a 3.5 game and that it was a bad system for new players was kind of douche bag behavior.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Certainly. The point I was trying to make, following Hussar's point, is that edition warring is all well and good (well, not all well and good) when we're talking amongst ourselves. But edition warring in front of unsuspecting CNN readers and Game Day walkups is completely counterproductive and rude.

Considering that he was at the table where a 3.P game was being demonstrated to new players, some children, I do not see the difference. A jerk is a jerk, whether he is pooh poohing 3.X or 4e. He was a jerk, and the old hairy grognards reacted by being jerks in turn. My response was 'have you ever played Pathfinder? No? Well, Pathfinder is more like 4e than you might have been told. Sit down, watch, and you will see that it's still about people rolling dice to kill monsters.' (I almost added 'and shut up' to the 'sit down', but I didn't.)

As noted, folks on message boards seem to lose some sense of proportion - I am sure that CNN has seen worse on political and sports threads. Much worse.

Walk ups... at Games Day? I suspect 'jerk'. The same kind that I was mentioning.

For myself, I use the same level of vitriol whether in public or on a board - enough so that one of my players recognized me by my style on these very boards. Anonymity does not count if people can still recognize you by your diction....

The Auld Grump

 

[Mr. Patient]

My point that I am trying to make is it is more what you say then when you say it.

I disagree. I think it's rude no matter what was said or how he said it. It was unsolicited advice, designed to make the jerk look like Mr. Knowledgeable Helper. The newbie had no context for understanding the relative merits of the editions. If he'd asked the jerk about 3e vs. 4e, that'd be a whole nother story.

Even if the jerk had tried to politely evangelize his game of choice, it would have been at best creepy and weird, because it was entirely unsolicited.

 

[DaveMage]

It's been brought up before, but I would guess many of the 3.x/Pathfinder players that are vitriolic towards 4E are that way due to WotC's off-putting (to some 3.5 fans) marketing campaign leading up to the game's release.

Heck, one of the advertisements/videos was so harsh (in the opinion of some 3.5 fans) towards those criticizing 4E that the attitude may be along the lines of "well, if you think so little of my opinion, I'll be happy to do whatever I can to show you how much of a mistake you (WotC) are making by telling everyone I meet". In other words, WotC's behavior may have been the real cause of the edition wars. Rather than try to defuse criticism, WotC laughed at it (in the opinion of some of those upset).

For those that went to Gen Con - how was the interraction between Pathfinder and 4E fans this year?

I think WotC would be best off with some sort of olive branch to those they've disenfranchised. No, they won't win everyone back, but some humble pie might do some good with the critics.

Of course, doing something well-received with old editions would be a great thing too....

 

[Mournblade94]

In this case, you could look at the story a different way:
the probability the clerk actually knows D&D is low.
The clerk being familiar with the product titles knows that a newer version is out is reasonably high
She may have been generically trying to advise a customer, that 'hey, that's for the old version, you should get the new version".

Why is this relevant? Because general wisdom is, that UNLESS you are looking for an old version (for price or preference), if you are just buying into a new product, you SHOULD get the new version. Because it is supported, etc.

It's not a wrong strategy. Its wrong to you because you knew exactly what you were doing and why you wanted the old version.

But plenty of people show up at her til, looking to buy a versioned product, but not realizing that they grabbed the old one. it doesn't take an expert to recommend "hey, that's the old version", nor that "the newer one is probably better".

Unlikely. I worked in Barnes and Nobles. Most clerks if not into RPG's have no knowledge which one is which. In order for her to even know 3rd edition she would have to be into the game.

Also I had a conversation with her. I KNOW through conversation that she was a gamer. your situation here does not apply.

 

[Elf Witch]

I disagree. I think it's rude no matter what was said or how he said it. It was unsolicited advice, designed to make the jerk look like Mr. Knowledgeable Helper. The newbie had no context for understanding the relative merits of the editions. If he'd asked the jerk about 3e vs. 4e, that'd be a whole nother story.

Even if the jerk had tried to politely evangelize his game of choice, it would have been at best creepy and weird, because it was entirely unsolicited.

Again no it is not. What this guy did the way it is described is kind of out putting behavior because it was unsolicited.

This has nothing to do with the guy being a newbie it would be annoying if it was an experience person being talked at.

I really didn't appreciate being lectured at the register by an employee young enough to be my son on how bad Pathfinder is because it just a continuation of everything that was bad in 3E and that 4E was the only way to go.

I find any kind of unsolicited opinions like that annoying no matter the subject. I found it annoying when a woman came up to be at Barnes and Noble and tried to hand me a bible because I was looking at books on paganism.

Something else that I wanted to say I have to disagree that it is bad for gamers to post their opinions on mainstream media because it might drive people away. If any article on any subject has a place for comments there are going to be people who post negative things. People have opinions and the internet has encouraged the practice of sharing them.