Do grognards have to be jerks?

[Mark CMG]

If you firmly believe that one "side" is worse than the other then you have probably chosen a "side" and, worse, you likely believe that choosing a "side" is a worthy pursuit. Sadly, that might also mean that examination of your own "side" and what you play is not going to be as rigorous or as fruitful. Come back to the middle, there's lots of room for innovative and/or traditional gamers in the excellent discussions that take place here.

 

[Umbran]

Does "buyer's remorse" include defending one's position in not buying something? Or is there another name for such a thing?

Whether for or against a purchase (or anything else) folks have a tendency to defend their decisions - to not do so is tantamount to admitting they were wrong, and who likes doing that? The ego involved, and things get messy. The more they defend it, the more wrong they'll be if they change positions.

Thus, once you really dig in, the more you tend to stay dug in.

 

[Mr. Patient]

Well, I dunno which camp is more vitriolic. I really don't.

But I do know that whenever 4e is mentioned in mainstream media (and since it is the face of D&D to those outside the hobby, it's generally the only one mentioned), you see commenter after commenter crawling out of the woodwork to tell all and sundry how much 4e sucks and that the reader should play some other game.(

It's not the mainstream media, but I encountered a pretty infuriating example of this sort of thing at one of the first 4e Game Days at my FLGS. I was waiting in line a few minutes before the shop opened, and the guy behind me mentioned that he'd never played D&D before, but he saw a flyer for the event and was interested enough to show up. The guy behind *him* then launched into a lecture on the many shortcomings of 4e, and told the newbie that if were really interested, he ought to start with 3e.

I wanted to kick this guy in the nuts. Way to grow the hobby, man.

 

[Mournblade94]

I don't really know which "side" are jerkier, but let me interject with my own personal anecdote....

I used to be on this dating website. Saw a girl on there, said on her profile she played D&D. I'm thinking, "Oh, neat. This chick's into D&D, too. That basically never happens." (at least in my social circles). So I shoot her an email saying I play D&D. This was her response:

"3E or 4E? Choose your answer wisely. Our future friendship depends on it."

Guess which edition she played? Hint: Its not 4E.

And you know what the funny thing is? I knew what edition she played before she even answered. That speaks volumes.

(EDIT: For the record, I basically explained to her that I play both editions but that I only started DMing with 4E. Didn't change her opinion that I was "doing it wrong".)

That is the same exact situation as being on a dating site and saying your a baseball fan.

MANY instances of dating possibilities being squashed because one person said Boston Red Sox and another said New York Yankees.

Come to New York and the Boston fans are jerks. Come to Boston and the New Yorkers are all jerks. This thread has the exact same connotation, and to say that one type of player is jerkier than another is laughable.

 

[Mr. Patient]

That is the same exact situation as being on a dating site and saying your a baseball fan.

MANY instances of dating possibilities being squashed because one person said Boston Red Sox and another said New York Yankees.

True enough, but being a baseball fan is pretty common (and I happen to be one). If you are so obsessed with the Red Sox that you couldn't countenance dating a Yankee fan, well, there are plenty of other Red Sox fans out there to pick from. We gamers are a rarer breed. We ought to stick together more.

 

[Elf Witch]

It's not the mainstream media, but I encountered a pretty infuriating example of this sort of thing at one of the first 4e Game Days at my FLGS. I was waiting in line a few minutes before the shop opened, and the guy behind me mentioned that he'd never played D&D before, but he saw a flyer for the event and was interested enough to show up. The guy behind *him* then launched into a lecture on the many shortcomings of 4e, and told the newbie that if were really interested, he ought to start with 3e.

I wanted to kick this guy in the nuts. Way to grow the hobby, man.

People like this may not mean to be jerks. They may feel they are guiding the person to a better play experience. Is it really different than a person standing in a computer store looking at a mac or a pc laptop with confession on their face and a mac fan pointing out all the reasons he believes mac to be better?

I can also see how a persons enthusiasm for something can turn off other people.

I sent a friend to a game store that I knew still had 3.5 players books in stock. She was joining our game which as you guessed is 3.5. She was new to role playing.

When she got to the store she found the players handbook and was looking at a lot of other things. Two guys came up and when they found out she was new player started pointing out how she was making a huge mistake joining a 3.5 group. How impossibly hard 3.5 was to play.

Now she was already a little intimidated by the idea of playing. She wanted to but she was worried that it would be to complicated.She walked out and didn't buy the book and called me and told me she was changing her mind.

I could have cheerfully kicked those guys into next week.

Eventually I got her into the game. I had to point out to her my own fears that I had when I first started and how I had a great group of players who helped me learn to play.

She ended up loving gaming and now after a year and half feels very comfortable with the rules. She is comfortable enough to try a new system and wants to try Shadowrun.

I don't think those guys meant to be jerks I think in their own way they were trying to be helpful. But they still almost drove a new player from the hobby.

 

[heretic888]

That is the same exact situation as being on a dating site and saying your a baseball fan.

MANY instances of dating possibilities being squashed because one person said Boston Red Sox and another said New York Yankees.

Come to New York and the Boston fans are jerks. Come to Boston and the New Yorkers are all jerks. This thread has the exact same connotation, and to say that one type of player is jerkier than another is laughable.

Let me put it another way.

I run a 4E group. I play in another 4E group (different people). I also, until our DM recently moved, played in a 3.5 group pretty regularly.

Neither I nor any of my 4E players have, to my knowledge, ever attacked or criticized another D&D player because they played 3E or earlier editions.

Have I been criticized or "corrected" for playing 4E? You betcha. Often times, by the same people selling me the 4E products (such as one of the cashiers at the Jensen Beach Borders)? Absolutely. Sometimes, by some of the players in our other groups? Yep.

By the way, none of the examples I gave took place on RPG internet forums or at conventions --- where I would expect strong opinions about RPG systems. These little "confrontations" happen in the hum-drum of regular, everyday life.

I have received the distinct impression that certain players of older editions --- at least here in the Treasure Coast of Florida --- are very elitist, hostile, and accusatory to people who play 4E, even if (as in my case) they also play earlier editions, as well. I have yet to encounter any such comparable behavior by 4E players in my neck of the woods (which, incidentally, spans 3 counties in southern Florida).

Then again, I don't really go to conventions and I don't count internet forums as "real life". I suspect the situaiton may be different there.

 

[Cergorach]

Folks, as a general rule, hate to be wrong. They'll defend a position into absurdity, some resort to violence, others huff and puff, some just walk away. There are very few folks that are willing to look at an issue from a variety of view points, especially if they are heavily invested in a certain point of view.

Folks are egocentric, some learn to look at other folks positions, but it's generally me, me, me!

As someone pointed out, the mac fan will promote the mac, the windows fan will promote the windows machine, while the linux fan will snort in disgust at them both. That's the reason why you NEVER ask fans for advice on what product to choose, because they are not impartial. You might ask each fan and then make up your mind on your own. You don't ask a red socks fan who the best baseball team is, you don't ask a D&D grognard which edition is the best. If they volunteer the information, you can kindly remind them that you actually like the stuff and get enjoyment from it, if they are rude (or disregard your position and are thus rude as well) remind them that your both Geeks that love playing make belief games and that it might not be something one should be high and mighty about ;-) Or you might remark that they have some pizza in their beard from when 2E came out, have you ever seduced a girl without rolling a D20 (or using charm person)? In other words be the bigger, better jerk ;-) I don't object to making them cry...

 

[Herschel]

People like this may not mean to be jerks. They may feel they are guiding the person to a better play experience. Is it really different than a person standing in a computer store looking at a mac or a pc laptop with confession on their face and a mac fan pointing out all the reasons he believes mac to be better?

In an open discussion about the broad spectrum pointing out what or why you like something is okay but this was a line for a certain event he was standing in trashing what the line was for. That's a social shortcoming of large proportions.

 

[catsclaw227]

4e ruined my life.

Therefore, it is my personal quest to warn others about the deficiencies of 4e so their lives won't get ruined, too. Sometimes, my zealotry rubs people the wrong way and I end up looking like a jerk. Sometimes, entire internet threads come crashing to a halt as I launch salvo after salvo of anti-4e vitriol against 4e proponents. Sometimes, people get mad at me because I refuse argue or have an open discussion because I know I'm right they are totally, and utterly wrong. And then they call me a grognard. To them I say: the truth hurts but it will set you free if you will only listen.

Furthermore, I understand that buying as many 4e books I can and then burning them will only help WotC's bottom line. But i'm not here to help WotC's bottom line, I'm here to help the average gamer become enlightened...

...and go back to playing Fantasy Wargaming, by Bruce Galloway!!! Oh yeah!

Wow. Ummm.... [MENTION=775]Ulrick[/MENTION], I really hope this was sarcastic. Even if it was sarcastic, is it really appropriate to post like this in a thread discussing the people that get involved in edition wars? Does it add weight to the OP's point?