Do grognards have to be jerks?

[Pilgrim]

Jerks are jerks regardless of what they play.

I've, quite honestly, seen just as many jerks coming from the players of newer editions as I have from players of the older editions.

Older edition players gripe and moan about how needlessly complex and "out of touch" D&D is today, while newer edition players whine and fuss over how "unfun" older rules/DMs and mechanics are and the game should eliminate anything that they don't like.

Every group has their annoying handful of players, it simply isn't limited to one side or the other. Personally I say "Bah!" to the whole lot of them. I have my preferences and have no problem debating my likes and dislikes with anyone, but I don't see the need to get all bent out of shape about it.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Exactly.

It boils down to "My [game/team/religion/political view] is better than your [game/team/religion/political view]."

People pick a side for whatever reason and then have a desire to both promote their choice and defend it against any who might doubt.

Emotions are powerful, aren't they? That's why marketers look to take advantage of them.

There was a recent psychological paper on this topic that I heard discussed on various news programs which, naturally, I'm unable to pull up in Google. But basically, once someone commits to a decision, they tend to become ever more convinced it was the right one, presumably to head off buyer's remorse.

Why people get their identities tied up in a game that they did not write, do not publish and have to pay out money to play, I do not know. But they do, just like there are people who will come to blows when discussing the purported virtues of the Xbox 360 vs. the Playstation 3.

 

[DaveMage]

There was a recent psychological paper on this topic that I heard discussed on various news programs which, naturally, I'm unable to pull up in Google. But basically, once someone commits to a decision, they tend to become ever more convinced it was the right one, presumably to head off buyer's remorse.

Why people get their identities tied up in a game that they did not write, do not publish and have to pay out money to play, I do not know. But they do, just like there are people who will come to blows when discussing the purported virtues of the Xbox 360 vs. the Playstation 3.

I'd like to see that if you ever do find it.

It's really interesting to me that if you are able to step back and take the emotion out of things (which, for me, can be very hard to do), how weird some of the things we like can be. I mean, I love watching NFL football and rooting for my team, but really, there is absolutely no tangible benefit to me whatsoever for watching a bunch of athletes I don't even know play their game - apart from feeling a rush of emotions (highs and lows). My life will be pretty much the same whether my team wins or loses, yet I am still very much emotionally invested.

Of course, the sad part of this is that really, pretty much all such arguements which are based on emotion (my game/team is great, your game/team sucks) has little effect on anything, other than helping us vent emotionally. I think, as a species, we have the drive/desire to always be right - even when we're not.

 

[AeroDm]

There was a recent psychological paper on this topic that I heard discussed on various news programs which, naturally, I'm unable to pull up in Google. But basically, once someone commits to a decision, they tend to become ever more convinced it was the right one, presumably to head off buyer's remorse.

Why people get their identities tied up in a game that they did not write, do not publish and have to pay out money to play, I do not know. But they do, just like there are people who will come to blows when discussing the purported virtues of the Xbox 360 vs. the Playstation 3.

I think it is a variation of confirmation bias. Once you've made your pick, you interpret everything after as affirming that decision. You pick 4e, so you see its strength, have fun during the game, and attribute that to 4e. Someone else sticks with 3e, focuses on its strengths, has fun during the game, and cannot imagine how the 4e player disagrees with what he just experienced. Over time, the bias builds and becomes entrenched.

Then we add to that how easy it is for people to talk past each other. One person really enjoys the easy 4e DCs and says, "4e skills are great." The other person misses the ability to allocate points to specific skills and says, "No. They are awful." Neither ever realizes they aren't talking about the same thing.

Finally we have hyperbole. The internet made communicating so easy that you need to be hyperbolic to stand out. The statement "I see the strengths, but I miss the ability to allocate skill points" doesn't pop off the screen and get noticed. Much easier to put a bunch of smilies to imply you are so -ing mad and all of the sudden people might want to give that a read.

People aren't jerks. They are mildly flawed and following the reward structures the community put in place.

 

[Mournblade94]

I really don't understand this. If you want your opinion to be "Both sides are equally vitriolic and offensive," then that's fine. That's your opinion. But you don't get to come here and say, "Both sides are equally vitriolic and offensive, and your opinion is wrong because you have nothing but anecdote to back it up!" You don't have anything but anecdote either.

And that's the point. There are far too many variables to make a claim. You can have an opinion, but everyone has those. The claim however cannot stand. You are emotionally invested in the perspective that the 4e fans are defenders.

Unless you can pull a bunch of grad students together and get them to compile and compare, the claim will not stand.

There are news organizations in the US that many claim to have a certain bias. That claim did not stand until multiple institutions put it to the test. Test results came out as indeed the organization is biased.

I simply understand for every incident of a 4e avenger entering forums and denigrating other games, there is a gamer most likely one of older editions going in somewhere and denigrating 4e. I notice the former more because I am emotionally invested in the older editions.

THe examples brought up in this thread are not strong examples. CNN is close but there is no comparable situation to observe reactions of 4e fans.

Your opinion is not wrong for you. If you make the claim grognard's are jerkier than 4e players, then there is an issue because you cannot back it up well.

I'd like to assert the following:

If you hate on a game you don't like in a non-constructive manner, you deserve everything you get in response and more. People like this need to be reprimanded or culled from the community.

If you criticize a game you don't like in a thoughtful manner that remains conscious of the fact that you're probably talking to people who disagree with you, you're fine.

If you respond to thoughtful criticism of your game of choice with vitriolic backlash that attacks the critic or his game of choice in a way that does not address the criticism itself, you deserve everything you get in response and more. People like this need to be reprimanded or culled from the community.

If you respond to thoughtful criticism of your game of choice with a reasonable defense or other rebuttal, you're fine.

Is this something that everyone is capable of agreeing on?

I would definitely agree with that. My criticism in the game store comes when asked "Why won't you buy any of the 4e products, since you play with us?"... or "Why don't you like 4e?"

I will occasionally play in pick up games because it is just that a game, but I would play just about any game with that particular group. I just make no adjustments to my schedule to make a session.

 

[heretic888]

I don't really know which "side" are jerkier, but let me interject with my own personal anecdote....

I used to be on this dating website. Saw a girl on there, said on her profile she played D&D. I'm thinking, "Oh, neat. This chick's into D&D, too. That basically never happens." (at least in my social circles). So I shoot her an email saying I play D&D. This was her response:

"3E or 4E? Choose your answer wisely. Our future friendship depends on it."

Guess which edition she played? Hint: Its not 4E.

And you know what the funny thing is? I knew what edition she played before she even answered. That speaks volumes.

(EDIT: For the record, I basically explained to her that I play both editions but that I only started DMing with 4E. Didn't change her opinion that I was "doing it wrong".)

 

[nedjer]

Psychology papers to the left, Fundy Attribution Errors to the right. If anyone else fancies dabbling in a little (very useful) psychology now and again your broad ENWorld psychological profile says THIS.

It is the most helpful link I am ever likely to post here or elsewhere; but don't click if you're averse to change/ involved in any form of evaluation of or treatment for mental health concerns.

There's a whole lot in there that's very relevant to RPGs, but if anyone wants to discuss psychology and RPGs please make a clean thread, as embedding it in a thread of this nature would be, basically, toxic.

 

[Eric Tolle]

People tend to defend what they have or are involved. If they feel their "game" or "hot rod" or whatever has been disrespected even a little often they will return and escalate.

That's the start of it. Then add the notion that another person liking a game one dislikes is itself an insult to the game one likes. After all, if they're enjoying "that other game", it must be because they think it's superior, thus disrespecting one's beloved game.

There's a lot of zero-sum philosophy in internet game fandom, hence all the vitriol. But it could be worse- we could be talking about music. I didn't know until recently that the pinnacle of music was 70s prog rock, that nothing good has been done since then, amd that I am intellectually and morally deficient for liking anything after 1980.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It's really interesting to me that if you are able to step back and take the emotion out of things (which, for me, can be very hard to do), how weird some of the things we like can be. I mean, I love watching NFL football and rooting for my team, but really, there is absolutely no tangible benefit to me whatsoever for watching a bunch of athletes I don't even know play their game - apart from feeling a rush of emotions (highs and lows). My life will be pretty much the same whether my team wins or loses, yet I am still very much emotionally invested.

Of course, the sad part of this is that really, pretty much all such arguements which are based on emotion (my game/team is great, your game/team sucks) has little effect on anything, other than helping us vent emotionally. I think, as a species, we have the drive/desire to always be right - even when we're not.

In the case of the NFL, it's especially weird, since the players are from all over, and rarely, if ever, had a previous tie to the community whose team they play for. Some don't even live in the area in the off-season. So they're not really your guys in any meaningful sense of the word. At least college athletes nominally attend the same classes that you do, albeit with a lot more tutoring and a lot less grade pressure.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

There was a recent psychological paper on this topic that I heard discussed on various news programs which, naturally, I'm unable to pull up in Google. But basically, once someone commits to a decision, they tend to become ever more convinced it was the right one, presumably to head off buyer's remorse.

Does "buyer's remorse" include defending one's position in not buying something? Or is there another name for such a thing?

I remember personally experiencing that feeling when everyone around me had cable when I didn't and would make Beavis and Butthead references. I would roll my eyes and then proceed to bash B&B because I felt left out of the apparent fun everyone was having and didn't get their references. I feel like I've encountered this reaction with every new edition of D&D. Someone bashing the newest edition without even having seen it in play.