Do grognards have to be jerks?

[Dannager]

Obviously rudeness happens from both sides. To claim that it happens MORE from one side is unwarranted, and difficult to defend.

I really don't understand this. If you want your opinion to be "Both sides are equally vitriolic and offensive," then that's fine. That's your opinion. But you don't get to come here and say, "Both sides are equally vitriolic and offensive, and your opinion is wrong because you have nothing but anecdote to back it up!" You don't have anything but anecdote either.

There have been multiple great points brought up in this thread regarding how the current edition of the game (and its fans) are treated as opposed to how fans of the current edition treat others - threads like this, mainstream media reports, anecdotes from convention and home play, etc.

I'd like to assert the following:

If you hate on a game you don't like in a non-constructive manner, you deserve everything you get in response and more. People like this need to be reprimanded or culled from the community.

If you criticize a game you don't like in a thoughtful manner that remains conscious of the fact that you're probably talking to people who disagree with you, you're fine.

If you respond to thoughtful criticism of your game of choice with vitriolic backlash that attacks the critic or his game of choice in a way that does not address the criticism itself, you deserve everything you get in response and more. People like this need to be reprimanded or culled from the community.

If you respond to thoughtful criticism of your game of choice with a reasonable defense or other rebuttal, you're fine.

Is this something that everyone is capable of agreeing on?

 

[mkill]

There is a simple reason why, among veteran gamers, adherents of old editions often speak bad of the new edition, but adherents of the new edition seldom complain about the old one.

Turn back the dial of time. 5 years ago, both played the same edition, and both enjoyed it. So back in the present, the player of the new edition probably still likes the old edition and has fond memories playing it; he just also enjoys the new edition, and plays it a) because he likes it more or b) because that's what his group decided to play.

Does that mean the player of the new edition is not a grognard who likes to complain? No. He'll just complain about things other than the old edition, maybe players of That Other Game, or LARPers.

(I developed this theory when I noticed that back in 2008, D&D 3rd edition boards were full of vitriol for 4th edition, but on 4th edition boards the older edition was hardly mentioned, and attempts at edition wars were mostly replied with "Yawn. Go away.")

 

[WheresMyD20]

I think there are jerks on both sides. The ones I find most obnoxious though are the jerks who spew hate about editions they've never actually played (or have only played a couple of times). They act like experts even though they really don't know what they're talking about.

I'm also amused by the jerks who will nitpick every little quirky detail in your favorite edition while ignoring the things that are flat-out broken in their favorite edition.

 

[mkill]

I think there are jerks on both sides. The ones I find most obnoxious though are the jerks who spew hate about editions they've never actually played (or have only played a couple of times). They act like experts even though they really don't know what they're talking about.

It's called Complaing About Shows You Don't Watch.

 

[Cergorach]

Gamers & Grognards are like sports fans, the old greats are often the best, and the other teams suck. There've even been whole battles fought by fans of competing teams, literally to the death (of a few), cities have been vandalized, etc. It's so far been a miracle that no brawls have broken out at Gencon between fans of different systems/editions, maybe being fat and old has it's advantages ;-)

 

[DaveMage]

Gamers & Grognards are like sports fans, the old greats are often the best, and the other teams suck. There've even been whole battles fought by fans of competing teams, literally to the death (of a few), cities have been vandalized, etc. It's so far been a miracle that no brawls have broken out at Gencon between fans of different systems/editions, maybe being fat and old has it's advantages ;-)

Exactly.

It boils down to "My [game/team/religion/political view] is better than your [game/team/religion/political view]."

People pick a side for whatever reason and then have a desire to both promote their choice and defend it against any who might doubt.

Emotions are powerful, aren't they? That's why marketers look to take advantage of them.

 

[Umbran]

I would have to agree with that last sentence

In this thread, I don't think it was wise to make that joke.

If you hadn't noticed, "I can poke people's sore spots, and put on a smilie, and folks will have to suck it up because it's a JOKE," is one of the most basic forms of jerkish behavior around. It is sometimes referred to as "kidding on the square" - making a joke, but actually meaning it.

Even if you did not mean it that way, enough others have in the past that the smilie is no longer a useful marker that you aren't being mean - too many people have hidden behind it. In plain text there is simply no way for folks to tell the difference, and in the middle of people feeling vaguely hurt, well, it isn't the smartest move in the world.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

I make a few edits to the OP below.

Just got back from GenCon and had a pretty good time. One thing I noticed however was that at almost every event there was someone talking about how the earlier versions of game x were terrible and that the true version was the current edition and that I should try to play the current rules. (This happened with several game systems, so I'm not criticizing the fans of any one game here.)

One currnie went so far as to compare a game company to the Nazis and say that anyone who purchased their older products were mindless sheep - and of course I had a bag of their stuff by my chair.

My experience is the opposite with players who embrace a game they like rather than new editions of games. They tend to be outgoing and not as insulting in one's choice of game.

Your experiences?

*Currnies is a term I just made up as the polar opposite to grognards.


(Hopefully this little edit points out how insulting the OP could be to "grognards").



EDIT to add:

Taking away specific terms, this is what a lot of this thread has read like to me:
"Why are people in group A jerks when people in group B are much more reasonable?"

In nearly every case, the poster themself belongs to group B when talking about jerks in group A.


I'm saying that for both sides, btw.


It got/gets even more absurd when the thread takes the direction of:
"I mean, sure there are some bad apples in group B, sometimes. But overall, there are far more jerks in group A than B. I have anecdotes to prove it!"

 

[Virel]

Just got back from GenCon and had a pretty good time. One thing I noticed however was that at almost every event there was someone talking about how the latest version of game x was terrible and that the true version was an older edition and that I should try to find the OOP rules. (This happened with several game systems, so I'm not criticizing the fans of any one game here.)

One grognard went so far as to compare a game company to the Nazis and say that anyone who purchased their current products were mindless sheep - and of course I had a bag of their stuff by my chair.

My experience is the opposite with players who embrace change and new editions of games. They tend to be outgoing and not as insulting in one's choice of game.

Your experiences?

Say WotC out loud it can rhyme with Nazi. Sounds like the person making the comment had passion but lacked tact.

As for my experiences with this...first played D&D in the late 70's. Currently run a 1st ed AD&D campaign that started in 1981 and had a break between 1997 to 2004.

People tend to defend what they have or are involved. If they feel their "game" or "hot rod" or whatever has been disrespected even a little often they will return and escalate.

In 2004, when I wanted to restart my AD&D game, even mentioning AD&D got a hostile response from about half of the gamers. They acted like religious zealots preaching the to the ignorant why new was better than old. Most of these could best be described as close minded. Another quarter didn't care but weren't interested. The other quarter were like ok I might be up for trying that.

I've encountered a old school gamers that were rabid in their dogma too. Some of which I would NEVER allow into my AD&D campaign based on how combative and their love of argument. Given all the old vs new, I found a 3E game and played in that until the players moved away. Was fun but the only reason the game was good was because of an excellent DM. I'm positive DMing 1st or 2nd edition, he would have ran an even better game because less of the sessions would have been spent look at rule books.

More than really any of the rpg's the older games are VERY DEPENDANT on a fair DM. Much of the rules in new games is to create DM fairness.

My old AD&D campaign has been active again since 2004. Most of the players came from new editions. They seem to have a lot of fun and have been active in some cases for seven years plus. Two of the players have ventured into wanting to DM for the old AD&D system. Both have said they'd never DM 3e type games again. Both were new edition players or DM.

If I think your cool, I'll play your edition of the game provided your willing to return the same level of respect and open mindedness. If I think your a jerk, I won't play in your game and I will NEVER allow you to play in mine regardless of what edition you like.

In summary, there are jerks on both sides of the new vs old fence. Their are also far more fun interesting folks on both sides of that same fence. Look at the person not the edition.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

But I do know that whenever 4e is mentioned in mainstream media (and since it is the face of D&D to those outside the hobby, it's generally the only one mentioned), you see commenter after commenter crawling out of the woodwork to tell all and sundry how much 4e sucks and that the reader should play some other game.

Instead of simply accepting that mainstream media attention is good for all of us.

I really feel sometimes that the people who do that don't want mainstream attention for the hobby. If it became mainstream, then it wouldn't be their game anymore.

I also feel this is some of the anger posited towards WotC. They move forward with the game in the direction they believe is best. Those who believe the entirety of the game "belongs" to them feel upset. From my POV the only portion of the game that belongs to me is that which takes place at my table. So no company will ever anger me for changing "my" game because it is simply impossible for them to do so.