Do grognards have to be jerks?

[Reynard]

It could be worse: we could be arguing about what color spiderman is.

 

[Elf Witch]

As someone else has said I was rather blind sided when the talk of fourth edition brought out people talking about how bad and unplayable third had become.

I knew that there was some things that most people agreed were clumsy rules. The pesky five foot step and grapple come to mind.

But for the most part I thought most people were satisfied with it. The groups I played with and what I read online seemed to support that.

I was in the camp of please don't bring out a whole set of new rules that will change the game. I thought they should have gone with streamlining and fixing what they already had.

When the game came out I realized that it was not something I wanted to play. And I will admit to being disappointed in WOTC and I felt a little depressed that after some 30 years I would no longer be a customer of DnD.

Then I watched this community start to rip itself apart over it. It got so bad that I left for two years.

I have come to accept that most likely I will never be a customer of WOTC again that I will find my RPG needs met with a different system.

But it does bug me that we get threads like this still. The thread title alone is a perfect example of edition warring. And I will admit that it gets my goat that there are people on both sides who don't realize that they are part of the problem. I can't believe there are people who really believe that one side is more innocent than the other. Or if one side does it a little less that makes the other side more in the wrong.

 

[catsclaw227]

As someone else has said I was rather blind sided when the talk of fourth edition brought out people talking about how bad and unplayable third had become.

I knew that there was some things that most people agreed were clumsy rules. The pesky five foot step and grapple come to mind.

But for the most part I thought most people were satisfied with it. The groups I played with and what I read online seemed to support that.

Near the end of the 3.x cycle, there were a lot of threads here and elsewhere that talked about the difficulty of DMing at higher levels, people banning splats entirely, broken combinations, power disparity, etc.

Is it possible that you didn't really notice them because you were quite satisfied and therefore didn't read or participate in them?

I almost always DM, and I had found the game very tough to have fun when I was dealing with some of the above items. But I didn't always post about it, even though I had burned out. By the time there were hundreds of splats, both "official" and from 3PP, I hated DMing higher than 11th level or so. I even had the help of DM Genie to keep the constantly changing math straight every round.

That was just my experience, of course, but that is what mattered to me. I was a old-time DM that was feeling burnout.

I do like playing PF though, but we're only 5th level at this point.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Simple really.

No game is perfect for everyone. When arguments happen about games, the right response is usually to remind them that there are better things to do with the energy that would improve their lives more dramatically than winning an Internet chat.

Heck, argue about something more important than games if you must.

KB

 

[Matt James]

The edition wars have turned political in nature. Heels are dug in so deep that they will always remain. Its more prevalent now due to the proliferation of information via the Interwebs. I still know a couple of AD&D (1e) grognards that bash any other game--let alone system.

Next time someone at a convention argues with you about the edition you play, comment on their hair and turn that into a war. Tell them anyone who has a haircut like theirs is obviously a sheep. You can do the same with t-shirts, shoes, or anything else. They probably have them (or cut their hair that way) because they like it that way. It's an interesting analog and often points out the absurdity of their argument.

 

[billd91]

I'm a little surprised that people were blindsided by talk about 3e's alleged unplayability. My recollection is that there had often been talk of that throughout 3e's publication run. And I don't think there's an edition of D&D that has been more criticized around here than the 3e pair.

Maybe it's partly been a question of threads of interest? I had watched some of the developments and discussions about 3x as someone interested in Living Greyhawk. I think the style of play (as well adventure writing) you saw with massed organized play generated discussions that you may not have seen very often among more stable/less standardized groups. And given the ease WotC would have had in gathering feedback from the RPGA, it doesn't surprise me 4e ended up designed to deal with issues brought up there.

 

[Herschel]

I can guarantee you have never seen my name in a 4e forum. Except when I was learning it when it first was released.

I would imagine those individuals are the examples of 'jerks'. 'They' are not the PAthfinder or other edition crowds. They are individuals.

I have not been in a 4e forum for years.

I don't go to the Pathfinder boards/threads either, but here's the rub: When is there enough individuals to call it a trend? Last night I gamed at a FLGS and a couple of people came up and asked if we were playing 4E. I said yes we were and one piped in with a refuse-eating grin with 'Oh, that's the version that's too restrictive so I don't like it' while looking for backup from store personel as if he was afraid I was going to turn him in to a oxyclean grease spot.

Now, you can say these two were just jerks, but this has happened numerous times there. There was a Pathfinder table playing next to us last year and they never had people approach them like that. Their DM and her husband were really cool but a couple of their players looked at us like we were forcing kittens to smoke cheap, unfiltered menthols.

There's a certain mentality of those who feel "betrayed" by an edition change that simply isn't there in those who embrace the new one. That's a simple, psychological phenomenon. Does that mean that all responses are appropriate if done in like manner? No. It's a viscious circle to be sure.

Where does that cycle end? I don't know. Saying both sides have had bad responses is quite accurate but claiming both are equally responsible for starting it is not.

 

[Dannager]

It is an insult to 4e players, much as the dragon poop ad was an insult to folks who were complaining about 4e, some of whom had good points.

Out of respect for Umbran's moderating request, I'm afraid I'm not going to respond to this post.

 

[Kobold Boots]

I don't go to the Pathfinder boards/threads either, but here's the rub: When is there enough individuals to call it a trend? Last night I gamed at a FLGS and a couple of people came up and asked if we were playing 4E. I said yes we were and one piped in with a refuse-eating grin with 'Oh, that's the version that's too restrictive so I don't like it' while looking for backup from store personel as if he was afraid I was going to turn him in to a oxyclean grease spot.

Now, you can say these two were just jerks, but this has happened numerous times there. There was a Pathfinder table playing next to us last year and they never had people approach them like that. Their DM and her husband were really cool but a couple of their players looked at us like we were forcing kittens to smoke cheap, unfiltered menthols.

Eh, just buy the other group a pizza and have fun playing your game in front of them.. obvious fun.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I don't go to the Pathfinder boards/threads either, but here's the rub: When is there enough individuals to call it a trend? Last night I gamed at a FLGS and a couple of people came up and asked if we were playing 4E. I said yes we were and one piped in with a refuse-eating grin with 'Oh, that's the version that's too restrictive so I don't like it' while looking for backup from store personel as if he was afraid I was going to turn him in to a oxyclean grease spot.

Now, you can say these two were just jerks, but this has happened numerous times there. There was a Pathfinder table playing next to us last year and they never had people approach them like that. Their DM and her husband were really cool but a couple of their players looked at us like we were forcing kittens to smoke cheap, unfiltered menthols.

OK, but how does this negate the observations by those who have experienced the same thing, but in the opposite direction? Or, more important, how does it negate the fact that the vast majority of gamers of any stripe are walking around just minding their own business?

There's a certain mentality of those who feel "betrayed" by an edition change that simply isn't there in those who embrace the new one. That's a simple, psychological phenomenon. Does that mean that all responses are appropriate if done in like manner? No. It's a viscious circle to be sure.

I honestly think a better explanation is simple tribalism. Did your grease-spot up above really care what you were playing, or was he just trying to voice the "correct" opinion based on what someone else said?

With respect to the games, we all have our preferences and understand full well we can just play whatever we want, regardless of what anyone else thinks. But when we collect into like-minded groups and start stewing about it, feeding off each others' annoyance, hear each others little anecdotes, we start feeling persecuted. So echochambers form, based not on what we like, but on what we don't like.

And when people from those echochambers wander out into the real world, they forget the vehemence of their position is really a tiny minority position. They sound like weirdos to the unitiated-- and sound like genocidal devils to members of an opposing echochamber, who feel compelled to respond in kind. And that leads to the vicious circle: crusaders on either side who just. can't. leave. it. alone.

Casual perusal of the internet unearths these unhealthy little echochambers all over the place, on topics ranging from gaming to politics to religion to sports to any other hot-button issue, on a scale from a dozen members to tens of thousands. At this very moment cultists on either side of the Edition Wars are pointing and sneering at posts made right here on ENWorld, possibly even this thread. How do those maladjusted troglodytes come across when they appear in real life, or in any moderate context?

Hint: they look like jerks.

Where does that cycle end? I don't know. Saying both sides have had bad responses is quite accurate but claiming both are equally responsible for starting it is not.

The cycle ends when people stop worrying about it. IMHO, the correct response to most of this tripe is to just roll the eyes and ignore it. Don't give the echochambers any reason to feel "vindicated" and they'll eventually run out of steam and grow up. And as for the irreparable, lone jerks out there flailing about like the catpiss-scented ogres that they are? Meh, they've always been there, they always will be. Give them a spritz of cologne and shoo them off.