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D&D 5E cancelled 5e announcement at Gencon??? Anyone know anything about this?

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
But, again, good fix/bad fix is not what's being argued.

Throughout this thread you and others have been stating that there is no problem with the mechanics. That every edition, other than 4e, the fighter has no balance issues with the caster.

I'm just jumping in, but I've read every post in this thread. I think I missed where people argued this. Can you link me some posts where people said that fighter/wizard disparity wasn't a problem for any group?

As always, play what you like :)
 

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Mournblade94

Adventurer
But, again, good fix/bad fix is not what's being argued.

Throughout this thread you and others have been stating that there is no problem with the mechanics. That every edition, other than 4e, the fighter has no balance issues with the caster.

But, if that's true, shouldn't you be annoyed that Pathfinder fixed the power disparity? Whether someone likes the fix or not isn't the issue. You're claiming that the problem doesn't exist at all

Shouldn't the same criticism of 4e - that they are making fixes to problems that don't exist - apply equally to Pathfinder? I mean, if the problem didn't exist then no changes need to be made right?

For the past few years, people have been telling us that WOTC was fixing something that didn't need fixing. In this thread you can see the same claims being made. Yet, when Paizo fixes exactly the same issue, albeit in a different way, then the criticism changes from, "There is no problem that needs fixing" to "Well, Paizo fixed the problem in the right way".

So, which is it? Is there a problem in the 3.5e mechanics or not?
Hussar I am pretty sure I answered this just before. Nobody said there was not a problem in the mechanics. They said it was not worth the fix 4e gave to it. Simply that is it. So what if there is a disparity? There were benefits to 3rd edition that outweighed which for many if it was a problem was a small one.

AND that small problem is STILL in Pathfinder. So no it did not get 'fixed' it got addressed on a level which I find more acceptable.
 

Imaro

Legend
But, again, good fix/bad fix is not what's being argued.

Throughout this thread you and others have been stating that there is no problem with the mechanics. That every edition, other than 4e, the fighter has no balance issues with the caster.

But, if that's true, shouldn't you be annoyed that Pathfinder fixed the power disparity? Whether someone likes the fix or not isn't the issue. You're claiming that the problem doesn't exist at all

Shouldn't the same criticism of 4e - that they are making fixes to problems that don't exist - apply equally to Pathfinder? I mean, if the problem didn't exist then no changes need to be made right?

For the past few years, people have been telling us that WOTC was fixing something that didn't need fixing. In this thread you can see the same claims being made. Yet, when Paizo fixes exactly the same issue, albeit in a different way, then the criticism changes from, "There is no problem that needs fixing" to "Well, Paizo fixed the problem in the right way".

So, which is it? Is there a problem in the 3.5e mechanics or not?


I haven't claimed any such thing. I've never experienced it is saying for me there wasnt a problem... That does not in any way preclude someone else from experiencing a problem and thus it existing for them. I have been very careful not to generalize, unlike some.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Y'know, it surprised me when I learned that so many people were so deeply butthurt about wizards in 3e. I mean, here you've got a classic "paper tiger" kind of class, who could do pretty effective things when they could do anything at all. They were not very good in a combat, since spells were prone to interruption, did crap for damage, and didn't work half the time.

It took me a while to realize that their problem wasn't that spellcasters were powerful, but that spellcasters could do things other classes couldn't, just as a function of their class. My wizard gets fly. Your fighter can't fly (unless they happen to find the right magic item). My wizard gets fireball. Your fighter can't fireball (unless they find the right magic item). My wizard gets charm. Your fighter can't charm...etc.

Spellcasters also changed the rules of the game. SR came into play because of spells. Save-or-die hurts your big cinematic combat, and neither result is desirable. Exploration spells gave DMs headaches thinking of ways to thwart teleporting and flight. Divination spells gave DMs headaches thinking of ways to thwart knowledge gained with a simple class ability. Climaxes were ruined all over the place, or DMs bit the bullet of a magical arms race. They forced the DM's hand.

So instead of addressing that issue directly, 4e just said, "Nope, we're not going to do it," turned everything into a combat spell, and shoehorned the leftovers into rituals, which were kind of obviously an afterthought.

And so people proclaimed it "fixed," since spellcasters now only did the exact same thing that everyone else did, just with different names, making it easy to predict a party's capability, and making sure a DM had to do next-to-nothing to ensure their adventure was climactic.

But, it wasn't "fixed" it was just nixed. And people who enjoyed -- or even who didn't mind -- the aspect of the game that let them do things like charm and teleport and divine the future were rather understandably annoyed that the designers had thought so little of the way that they had been having fun for years that they just deleted it. And so they left to support a company that has continued to support their playstyle.

And they've supported that company to the point that it has become the reigning #1 tabletop RPG company.

Which at least means, to my mind, that if it is unbalanced, that it is to such a small degree that people who are buying RPG books really don't give a flying flumph, making those earlier criticisms seem overblown, and the WotC response to them seem draconian.

"OH GOD, MY CHILDREN ARE MILDLY DUSTY!"
WotC: "Guess we're going to have to rip off their skin so they can never get dusty again!"
Audience A: "Yay! No more dusty children ever! That dust was SO annoying! Now I can take my kid to fancy society functions!"
Audience B: "Um...gross and no. What? You don't need to do that."
Paizo: "Well, all I've got is this muddy rag, but maybe it'll help? And maybe you'd like a muddy kid better than a child with no skin?"
Audience A: "Bah! That child is still very dirty! It is gross, how can you take it?"
Audience B: "Yeah, no, we'll take that...perhaps we can find a way to clean them off later that doesn't rip off their skin?"
 

Hussar

Legend
I'm just jumping in, but I've read every post in this thread. I think I missed where people argued this. Can you link me some posts where people said that fighter/wizard disparity wasn't a problem for any group?

As always, play what you like :)

Ok, fair enough:

Hmm, while I do not want to drag this into another Fighter/Wizard debate, the people who keep claiming this should realize that this problem did not occur for everybody.

It all depends on the campaign,adventure design, and group dynamic.

In other words, the problem isn't with the system, it's with how the system is used.

/snip

The reason in this case is because a lot of folks didn't find 3.X wizards over powering, while some 4e players cannot wrap their minds around the fact that it is either subjective or circumstantial.

It comes down to style of play.
/snip

The Auld Grump

Again, no problem with the system, it's a playstyle problem.

It is a question of likes and dislikes - by its very nature it is subjective. To claim other wise is silly. Like trying to claim that chocolate icecream is better than strawberry - not everyone likes chocolate, not everyone likes strawberries, and some like both. So, no, there is no logical fallacy possible in this instance, except in trying to argue that a subjective like or dislike is somehow objective.

And I use timelines in every game, not just PF, including games that recharge magic by the scene or do not use magic at all. It is how I have run games since 1981 and went to a seminar on game mastering and world creation by the late Wm. John Wheeler.

The Auld Grump

Again, the problem doesn't exist in the system, it's a playstyle issue.

There's three so far. Would you like me to find more?

So, if the problem isn't systemic, why isn't Paizo being criticised for fixing a non-existent problem, the same way that WOTC gets criticised?
 

Hussar

Legend
KM said:
Y'know, it surprised me when I learned that so many people were so deeply butthurt about wizards in 3e. I mean, here you've got a classic "paper tiger" kind of class, who could do pretty effective things when they could do anything at all. They were not very good in a combat, since spells were prone to interruption, did crap for damage, and didn't work half the time.

I'd agree with you KM if all it was was wizards. But it wasn't just wizards vs everyone else, it was all casters. Now, if you stuck to single digit level play, it really wasn't much of an issue. Most of the truly problematic spells don't come up until you start getting into double digits.

So, right there, that lets out a lot of groups because I think most groups never played in higher level, or at least very rarely played at those levels. Sure, the wizzie and the cleric might be uber at 11th level, but, if you only play to 11th level, who cares?

OTOH, if you actually wanted to play outside of the "sweet spot" the game got more and more unbalanced.

I'm looking at the Zeitgheist player's guide right now and the two nerfs right off the bat are dimensional travel and long distance flight. And there's a reason for that. They make adventure design such a PITA.

Now, I do totally agree that rituals need work. We need a big book of rituals to come out. Rituals should be as plentiful as 3e feats. And it's a real shame that they've sort of been left to hang. That's certainly a lost opportunity.

But, OTOH, if you look at virtually every high level module out there, the first section you're going to see is how they nerf casters. That, right there, shows to me that there is a problem that should have been addressed a long time ago.
 


Hussar

Legend
I play 4e now, but i don't ever remember having a problem with Wizards during my 3e days

Ok, fair enough. A few questions:

1. What levels did you usually play at?
2. Did anyone actually play a straight caster - particularly one of the big three (cleric/wizard/druid)?
3. What supplements were allowed?
 

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