D&D 5E cancelled 5e announcement at Gencon??? Anyone know anything about this?

[Dice4Hire]

And I never once have cared about "balance" in any edition. Sometimes you get to do cool things. Other times your friends do. This doesn't mean you're a victim because your friends also get to be the center of attention sometimes.

Sometimes, no problem;
Usually, yes, a problem;
Always, no fun for me at all.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So the caster can take out a whole squad of troops before the fighter ever draws their sword. Fine. But what can they do for an encore?

Take out ~2 or 3 more squads. Fill in with cheap wand and scroll charges as necessary. Then teleport away to home to rest and recuperate so that they can do it again tomorrow.

Past a certain level, it gets really, really, really hard to pin down a prepared spellcaster, because of that whole "rewriting reality" bit.

 

[Lanefan]

Points of light - especially in light of Worlds and Monsters - is, at least for me, first and foremost a vibe. It's a mythical history, and then a series of fallen empires - the giants' empire, the illithid empire, the dragonborn empire, the tiefling empire, the minotaur kingdom, fallen Nerath, and probably others I've forgotten.

Which thus far is not unlike the game I'm currently running (the specifics differ but the idea is similar).

And many of the races are defined very strongly in terms of this history - elves and eladrin in terms of the mythic history of the Feywild, dragonborn, dwarves and tieflings by their place in the sequence of empires, humans by the (comparatively) recent fall of Nerath, bringing dreams of a cosmopolitan civilisation to an abrupt end.

However, other than Humans, the various races are mostly so far removed from their time of empire that they are much more defined by the here-and-now.

Then again, I suppose it depends how old these empires are. In my game the Dwarven cultures/empires hit their peak about 50,000 years ago and took about 20,000 years to fall apart. Nobody really cares about them now, except dusty historians.

Of the core PHB races, only Halflings have no real location in the history of the setting. (Which, to my mind, makes them the weakest race in the PHB. I'm glad none of my players plays a halfling PC.)

Simple fix: the Halflings are working up to Empire, they just haven't got there yet. Their main impact on history is yet to come.

And as a side effect, there's yer campaign in a nutshell.

But suppose, instead, that a group wants to run a game more oriented towards the exploration of a fictional setting - where "immersion, as if in a fantasy novel" is the key. Well, PoL doesn't support that very well at all - becaue the stuff that the PCs are most obviously suited to explore isn't in the material provided to the GM. Where was Bael Turath? What about Akhosia? Where, exactly, are all the fey crossings? The sorts of details that don't matter if the map is just a backdrop for play that is concerned with something else, suddenly turn out to be missing once exploration of the setting becomes the main focus of play.

Whether or not the GM uses the Nentir Vale as a starting point, I think a lot of work would be needed to run an exploration-based PoL game.

If you're defining PoL as the Nentir Vale 4e setting, you're probably right. The same is true of trying to run such a campaign in any published setting.

But if you're defining PoL as a setting *type*, then I'd posit it's easier to run an exploration-style game in such a setting where you build the setting yourself than in one where so much more is developed or civilized; as other than the actual points of light you can pretty much make stuff up as you go along, to suit the situation. In other words, you have more blank space on the map.

Lan-"where the map is blank, I'll go"-efan

 

[Pentius]

I almost hate to wade into the whole caster argument (not a problem in any game I ever ran) but I really have to start to wonder if the problem is DMs who allow all the caster's strengths but don't also play to any of their weaknesses? This also gets to the whole 15 minute day thing (again something that I, as a DM, can't imagine ever being a problem) and not forcing players to face the consequences of their actions in a meaningful way. So the caster can take out a whole squad of troops before the fighter ever draws their sword. Fine. But what can they do for an encore? Most games I've ran, the wizards learned to pace themselves with the fighters, because burning out fast meant they were good for nothing as the dangers continued to press in.

I believe that there were those who had problems with casters, but I am not convinced it was the rules at fault.

Also for a look at a high level product/module where casters were not nerfed up front (and in fact we tried to make high level abilities a prerequisite for participation), I humbly offer Coliseum Morpheounhttp://paizo.com/store/byCompany/c/cubicle7/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8gph for your consideration.

Wizards, maybe. I don't claim to be a Wizard Whiz, so to speak. Druids don't really have a 15 minute adventuring day problem, though. If the Dm wants to send wave after wave of enemies, I could just use Wild Shape to be a large, predatory animal(I heard bears were strongest, but I preferred Tiger) all day. At level 8, Wild Shape can be used 3 times per day for 8 hours apiece. Between that and the animal companion, you don't burn out too hard.

 

[haakon1]

Sometimes, no problem;
Usually, yes, a problem;
Always, no fun for me at all.

Sorry for editing while you were quoting. Looks like it all turned out OK in the end.

I really, really don't care about balance as a player, and I don't think it's a critical thing as a DM either.

For example, I had a new player start as a 1st level character in a campaign where other players have 3rd-4th (in 3.5e). He's having a blast, because (a) D&D is fun, (b) he has good armor, good hit points and saves (paladin), and a +1 magic sword because I made sure he wouldn't die too easily, (c) the character is the most effective one in the party at the role of his character class (meatshield in this case) and is appreciated for it, and (d) the players are all friends and play as a team, not PvP or one-ups-man-ship.

This certainly wouldn't work for every group, but it works for every group I've ever run. I always have the rule that new characters either (a) start at 1st level, (b) start at 1st level with an ECL for a more powerful race (an option rarely used) up to the average party level, or (c) take over an NPC who already exists in the campaign, with whatever stuff and connections to the world and the PC's that the NPC had (a very popular choice, even if it means just a 1st level NPC with a story).

No one has ever complained about this being unfair or unbalanced, but it is oh so unbalanced by the discussions here. <shrug>

 

[Pentius]

Sorry for editing while you were quoting. Looks like it all turned out OK in the end.

I really, really don't care about balance as a player, and I don't think it's a critical thing as a DM either.

For example, I had a new player start as a 1st level character in a campaign where other players have 3rd-4th (in 3.5e). He's having a blast, because (a) D&D is fun, (b) he has good armor, good hit points and saves (paladin), and a +1 magic sword because I made sure he wouldn't die too easily, (c) the character is the most effective one in the party at the role of his character class (meatshield in this case) and is appreciated for it, and (d) the players are all friends and play as a team, not PvP or one-ups-man-ship.

This certainly wouldn't work for every group, but it works for every group I've ever run. I always have the rule that new characters either (a) start at 1st level, (b) start at 1st level with an ECL for a more powerful race (an option rarely used) up to the average party level, or (c) take over an NPC who already exists in the campaign, with whatever stuff and connections to the world and the PC's that the NPC had (a very popular choice, even if it means just a 1st level NPC with a story).

No one has ever complained about this being unfair or unbalanced, but it is oh so unbalanced by the discussions here. <shrug>

So, basically, if everyone gets to be awesome sometimes, no one is completely overshadowed and has a good time, a state of things you encourage via a simple rule and an air of good sportsmanship, you don't care about balance.

The thing is, to me, that may as well read "As long as things are roughly balanced, I don't care about balance."

 

[Wicht]

Then teleport away to home to rest and recuperate so that they can do it again tomorrow.

See that's the part I don't get. You teleport away and thus leave the situation uncontrolled.

I've played high level games. Teleport can make camping easier, that's for sure, but it doesn't help rescue the damsel, so to speak. While you are recouping, she's being offered up as the sacrifice to allow the really nasty things in. The wizard can certainly make situations easier, but they can only prepare for a limited number of contingencies per day. If there is only one encounter a day, the wizard can shine bright. But if there is a variety of things going on at the same time, a well rounded group is always, in my experience, is always going to do better than any single spellcaster. Even one with wands (which take time to draw out, one after the other).

Iin most of the 3e/PF campaigns I have run, it was always the fighter who managed to keep the pace up the longest in almost any situation, shining the brightest the most consistently, taking the most damage and dealing it out in equal measures. Wizards have their moments, but no wizard has ever managed to learn every spell and their repetoire ends up being limited in actual game play.

 

[Wicht]

Wizards, maybe. I don't claim to be a Wizard Whiz, so to speak. Druids don't really have a 15 minute adventuring day problem, though. If the Dm wants to send wave after wave of enemies, I could just use Wild Shape to be a large, predatory animal(I heard bears were strongest, but I preferred Tiger) all day. At level 8, Wild Shape can be used 3 times per day for 8 hours apiece. Between that and the animal companion, you don't burn out too hard.

Just out of curiousity, how did your tiger-druid handle archers, iron gates and thick stone walls?

 

[billd91]

So, basically, if everyone gets to be awesome sometimes, no one is completely overshadowed and has a good time, a state of things you encourage via a simple rule and an air of good sportsmanship, you don't care about balance.

The thing is, to me, that may as well read "As long as things are roughly balanced, I don't care about balance."

To me, it says, "We have the only balance that is actually important: balance in play, not raw mechanical balance."

 

[Pentius]

Just out of curiousity, how did your tiger-druid handle archers, iron gates and thick stone walls?

Archers could be chased down with a little trouble(if I didn't want to use a spell, such as Call Lightning). Iron gates are subject to Rusting Grasp. It wouldn't wreck the whole gate, but a three-foot radius hole is big enough to walk through. Thick stone walls could pose a problem(assuming I'm trying to get through it). Summon Nature's Ally 3(SNA4, if I'm crunched for time) can get me a Thoqqua, though. Thoqqua have a burrow speed and specifically leave a usable tunnel behind. It's small(so you have it/them make more than one, and combine them) and it's also "blisteringly hot", so use create water to cool it.

At worst, I'm left with the same options as a non-caster.



*For reference, the spells I'm talking about are all PHB, and the Thoqqua is from the Monster Manual. We didn't really use a lot of books other than the core 3.