How much backlash is too much?

[prosfilaes]

I think this amounts to bad communication.
To me, it would be clear that that was an RP encounter. Like you see in the movies, the good guy storming bruised and battered and "threatening" the bad guy without actually harming him.
However the scene failed. You should have hinted more that that was an RP encounter.

Perhaps a narrativist style would make the distinction, but I would find it a frustrating distinction in play. If my character feels offended by being manhandled to the point that he kills the paladin (and I do get the feeling that it was part of an 'evil cool' that the player was going for), then that's what he should get to do. Defining it as a RP encounter is artificial.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Regardless of how the townsfolk react, I think you have a potentially great long-term heated competition between the PC's and the LG group in this game's future.

I say "Roll with it."

Don't have the LG's confront the PC's right away. As others have mentioned, have them call in reinforcements. Let it build.

This isn't that dissimilar to what happens in many games when the heroes can never seem to kill/confront/track down the final villain. The ongoing frustration by the players translates into highly motivated characters. You'll just be doing it in a different way: an "evil" way. This could be a wonderful element to your campaign.

I suggest having many of their town perks taken away and find a way to make the LG group responsible. Get the players to blame the LG group for their loss of privileges. Maybe the nearest Prelate of Heironimus preaches a sermon and posts notices all over the county denouncing the PC's for their opening of a demonic gate and willful slaughter of a hero.

I agree: evil acts should have consequences. Being hounded by bounty hunters*; being shunned when they are recognized; having their travel options limited now that they are "known."

Your players might even love these developments. I mean, they did pick "evil" characters on purpose. In my opinion, this type of outcome is almost inevitable with an evil group.


*And you can develop different bounty hunters to kick in the door whenever things get too dull.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Or, take this as a chance to reboot with non-evil PCs.

Let the new party come to town, passing under the shadow of the sword mage, now swinging from his neck on the tallest tree.

Ask the players if they would be willing to die to protect the mage, if not, they left town. If they were, then lots of gallows fruit. Kill off any townsfolk that you want, but don't play out the battle. If they ask then tell them that the battle was turning against the town when one armored stranger rode in, took the evil characters down, leaving them alive but unconscious, then rode off, not even stopping to let the townsfolk thank him. The hangings were courtesy of the local constabulary.

Let them wonder who took them down....

The Auld Grump

 

[The Shaman]

*[very good advice]*

"You must spread some Experience Points around . . ."

 

[Argyle King]

Or, take this as a chance to reboot with non-evil PCs.

Let the new party come to town, passing under the shadow of the sword mage, now swinging from his neck on the tallest tree.

Ask the players if they would be willing to die to protect the mage, if not, they left town. If they were, then lots of gallows fruit. Kill off any townsfolk that you want, but don't play out the battle. If they ask then tell them that the battle was turning against the town when one armored stranger rode in, took the evil characters down, leaving them alive but unconscious, then rode off, not even stopping to let the townsfolk thank him. The hangings were courtesy of the local constabulary.

Let them wonder who took them down....

The Auld Grump

I can't claim to speak for the OP's players, but -if it were me- I'd be somewhat turned off of the game if the DM just declared I was dead in that manner. Here lies the party... death by railroad.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I can't claim to speak for the OP's players, but -if it were me- I'd be somewhat turned off of the game if the DM just declared I was dead in that manner. Here lies the party... death by railroad.

Or left town - the thing is that, in my not so humble opinion, the GM is not happy running an evil game, and should have said no at the outset.

Killing the PC off is likely to either end up with the town dead and the game on blocks or with having a deus ex machina pulled out from preventing it from happening. My suggestion just moves the DeM off screen.

The PC is a murderer. The PC should be hanged. Not just backlash, but trial, sentence, and execution. Failing that, frontier justice.

I do not pretend to understand 'I don't like to say no' - saying no is sometimes part of the GM's job. If you don't want a particular Prestige Class in your game, then say 'no'. If you do not want Oriental Adventure weapons and classes in your Western European game then say 'no'. If you do not want evil PCs then say 'no'.

That said, I very seldom have to say 'no'. My players can pretty much figure out what will fly and what won't. (Except that one guy who wanted to play an Ooze Master in Iron Kingdoms....)

I very much doubt that I would find myself in the OP's position. My players know better than pulling crap like that.

The Auld Grump

 

[Argyle King]

Or left town - the thing is that, in my not so humble opinion, the GM is not happy running an evil game, and should have said no at the outset.

Killing the PC off is likely to either end up with the town dead and the game on blocks or with having a deus ex machina pulled out from preventing it from happening. My suggestion just moves the DeM off screen.

The PC is a murderer. The PC should be hanged. Not just backlash, but trial, sentence, and execution. Failing that, frontier justice.

I do not pretend to understand 'I don't like to say no' - saying no is sometimes part of the GM's job. If you don't want a particular Prestige Class in your game, then say 'no'. If you do not want Oriental Adventure weapons and classes in your Western European game then say 'no'. If you do not want evil PCs then say 'no'.

That said, I very seldom have to say 'no'. My players can pretty much figure out what will fly and what won't. (Except that one guy who wanted to play an Ooze Master in Iron Kingdoms....)

I very much doubt that I would find myself in the OP's position. My players know better than pulling crap like that.

The Auld Grump

I feel -if I were one of the players- I would prefer the GM address the issue out of game and express discomfort with the situation rather than game out a mysterious stranger coming into town and killing the party without any opportunity for the players to have any input.

As for being a murderer... I'm still not sure I 100% agree. You mentioned 'frontier justice.' If that's the type of law which the town is based around then I believe even less that it's a black & white case. Yes, after the longer explanation, I do believe the evil PC escalated the situation. However, I also feel -as said already- he defended himself against a man who was crazed with emotion; not only that, the same man who had approached him with violence is somebody -again, as said- who has a well known ability to wield godlike powers with his bare hands. It's actually somewhat fitting that the term 'frontier justice' was mentioned because the first thing I imagined when reading the OP was a scene from a western.

At the very least, I think there's enough doubt to make a trial more interesting than it would otherwise be. If the organization the paladin belongs to strives to uphold law and order, I would assume they would be violating their vows by not being fair in their application of the law. Even if the PC is found guilty, I think it would make an interesting rp opportunity to have his evil compatriots be given the chance to break him out of prison and/or sway the trial in their favor. Even if they fail, they'll have been killed by dice and sword rather than crushed on the rails of the Fiat Express.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I feel -if I were one of the players- I would prefer the GM address the issue out of game and express discomfort with the situation rather than game out a mysterious stranger coming into town and killing the party without any opportunity for the players to have any input.

Talking to the players is always the best choice.

As for being a murderer... I'm still not sure I 100% agree. You mentioned 'frontier justice.' If that's the type of law which the town is based around then I believe even less that it's a black & white case. Yes, after the longer explanation, I do believe the evil PC escalated the situation. However, I also feel -as said already- he defended himself against a man who was crazed with emotion; not only that, the same man who had approached him with violence is somebody -again, as said- who has a well known ability to wield godlike powers with his bare hands. It's actually somewhat fitting that the term 'frontier justice' was mentioned because the first thing I imagined when reading the OP was a scene from a western.

He drew steel in a fistfight, and killed a man. The paladin was yelling at him and had grabbed him - while a paladin can channel power through his hands, most folk, townsfolk included, would expect him to draw steel rather than grapple with someone he expected to smite. The fact that he was using his hands counts against the murderous mage. Sorry, your excuse for him does not wash. Everyone knows that paladins use swords for killin' folks. 'He was a paladin, I had to kill him' is not going to sway a jury. Going on and finishing his meal? Cold blooded murder that was.

And yes, folks were hanged for drawing steel or a gun in a fistfight or brawl.

So, the bone orchard is waitin'.

At the very least, I think there's enough doubt to make a trial more interesting than it would otherwise be. If the organization the paladin belongs to strives to uphold law and order, I would assume they would be violating their vows by not being fair in their application of the law. Even if the PC is found guilty, I think it would make an interesting rp opportunity to have his evil compatriots be given the chance to break him out of prison and/or sway the trial in their favor. Even if they fail, they'll have been killed by dice and sword rather than crushed on the rails of the Fiat Express.

Except that the odds are that it won't be an 'RP opportunity' - it would be a bloodbath with the players murdering a bunch of townsfolk. So, nah, I would just have him killed - I do not want to run a game where a bunch of evil PCs then murder the town for executing a murderer.

The Auld Grump

 

[Havrik Stoneskimmer]

I'm not sure this kind of game leads anywhere fun. Yeah, you can play out the town's constabulary hunting down the PCs, or a NPC party of bounty-hunters pursuing them, etc. You can have the PCs captured and locked in the stocks. You can have the townspeople plead to a lawful good dragon to eradicate these evildoers from their midst, etc. But your players will almost certainly see this as the DM vs. the players rather than appreciate it as in-game consequences for antisocial behavior.

Now Quickleaf talked about embracing this style of play, and I can actually see that being a fun campaign, if and only if everyone - players and DM - are on the same page about it. That the PCs are free to be as jerky as they like to the NPCs and the DM will have the NPCs retaliate in whatever way makes sense, and attempt to thwart everything the PCs do. Nothing personal; it's just verisimilitude.

But you gotta make sure everyone understands the nature of the campaign up front, or the players will take it personally and nurture grudges against the DM.

 

[SuperJebba]

I agree with Havrik, and herein lies my discomfort with the whole evil thing i think. Any action I take against the PCs seems like me against them and not just consequences for their actions. The town constable is 4 levels higher than the swordsage and has several deputies. He could easily incarcerate the swordsage, but I know it would end in a bloodbath leaving the PC dead.

Thanks, Havrik. I didn't really know how to express what I didn't like about the evil group, but now I do.