WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[Bullgrit]

It seems that each of us has a different threshold for what constitutes "hardly a scratch." Funny.

Bullgrit

 

[Bullgrit]

When the cave-in started, they legged it. They'd had the split-second reactoon of the lava corridor earlier - no-one wanted to hesistate here! They moved at speed, with a few dexterity rolls to see if they stumbled into pits or dropped anything, and then got out as the whole thing collapsed, examining the map they recovered from the Lich's crypt.

I let them pack up their sheets and commit to playing Primetime Adventures the next week before I told them that they'd been had.

I'm curious: What was the Players' reactions when you told them they'd been fooled. Were they, "Well played, sir," or something negative?

This brings up a question I had never considered before:

Does this illusion make the entire Tomb collapse, or just up to up the stairs to the pit trap? The text says:

A programmed illusion from the pseudo-crypt will give the full effects of a cave-in, and actual dust will billow up the stairs, while bits of stone begin to fall in the east-west tunnel and then the north-south tunnel and stairs reached from the pit. If the party runs out, ask them if they thought it was too hard a dungeon.

I always read it as just collapsing that pseudo-crypt and up the stairs. But reading it closer, now, there are a couple of little phrases that might suggest the whole Tomb:
"if the party runs out"
"If this doesn't make them suspicious enough to take another run through to check things out"

"Runs out"? "Take another run through"?

GQuail, your posts reads like the Players ran all the way out of the Tomb? Is that the way you ran the illusion?

Bullgrit

 

[FoxWander]

Just to clarify my thinking of "hardly a scratch"- when my group went thru Return we never had to bother with magical healing until we reached the throne. And that was just to be at our peak expecting a final battle soon. The only time we took damage at all was fighting the gargoyle and the annoying secret door gauntlet. If we had gone thru the archway instead there would have been less than 20 points (or so) damage amongst the entire party!

And it wasn't luck (or cowardice)- we were simple careful and methodical. A ring of feather falling and a rope harness meant the thief (my character) never fell in a pit. We opened doors from the side so we never got hit with a spear trap. We assumed anything that could opened might be trapped and dealt with it carefully. The example I gave with the 3 chests was from that adventure, so we never dealt with the asps and simply didn't open the chest that triggered the skeleton- because we knew it was empty.

Also- the riddle did work as a guide. We checked out the red sphere in the 2nd hall which lead us to the ring. And the black one (night's good color) led to the tomb. We searched the pits for secret doors because of it. Later, when we found the a false door that WASN'T a spear trap we found the real secret door to go on. We knew we'd need multiple keys (because it was plural) so we searched carefully for them. When we saw the "iron men" later, we knew one must hide a secret door. Only the "trembling hands and what will maul" didn't make much sense at the time. We figured the first had something to do with the shaking room but didn't know what exactly- and we never encountered the juggernaut (what will maul).

Edit- we didn't find the message on the gargoyles collar, so we never dealt with that riddle. We also didn't find the gargoyle statue, so we never had the chance to get our nice gems ground to dust either.

 

[Stoat]

[MENTION=1356]FoxWander[/MENTION]

This was a 2E game, right? What level were you guys?

 

[GQuail]

I'm curious: What was the Players' reactions when you told them they'd been fooled. Were they, "Well played, sir," or something negative?

They seems to take it well. One of them had just that day loaned me a 1989 book by Gary Gygax, [ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Master-Game-Gary-Gygax/dp/039951533X"]Master Of The Game[/ame], and realised with a certain humour that he'd read about this very "fake boss" encounter in that book but hadn't realised it was happening when it took place.

The group as a whole seemed to take the fake crypt as very much in keeping with everything else they'd seen. The dungeon was full of tricks, traps and illusions - when I randomly rolled the scrolls in the crypt it turned up several illusion-type spells which they noted felt appropriate for the dungeon. A fake final battle and illusory cave-in seemed quite appropriate rather than GM unfairness. I suppose if I'd asked for some sort of dice roll to allow them a chance to notice the illustory nature while escaping?.... but that's maybe my 3.5 mindset showing.

Another thing to note: they went to Room 19 first so they had already recovered the FIRST KEY. After the fact, I pointed out they had a key they had found no use for, and that they hadn't super-keen explored Room 19 for secret doors, so perhaps the fact it was a fake wasn't without clues. (And better clues than that leather bag being intact. )

This brings up a question I had never considered before:

Does this illusion make the entire Tomb collapse, or just up to up the stairs to the pit trap? The text says:I always read it as just collapsing that pseudo-crypt and up the stairs. But reading it closer, now, there are a couple of little phrases that might suggest the whole Tomb:
"if the party runs out"
"If this doesn't make them suspicious enough to take another run through to check things out"

"Runs out"? "Take another run through"?

GQuail, your posts reads like the Players ran all the way out of the Tomb? Is that the way you ran the illusion?

Yes, my group ran out the whole way, and I played the illusion as being functional throughout the whole of the tomb. I read Gygax's comments as strongly implying the whole tomb would appear to be collapsing - and indeed, I had the very entrance of the tomb apparently clog up.

On a re-read I totally see the interpretation that its just the lower level, possibly still leaving the secret door to Area 19 visible. In that version then even if they beat the fake Lich they may continue to explore and could find the rest of the dugneon... or they may assume they've won and depart.

I think I prefer the way you suggest, Bullgrit, because that way failure to find the rest of the dungeon feels more like a player failure. They choose to leave afterwards so the mocking tone of Gary is very slightly more deserved.

 

[GQuail]

Given that a PC can operate at full effectiveness with less than max hit points, that healing magic at levels 10 to 14 is fairly easy to come by, and that there is no penalty for stopping to rest in the tomb, I tend to discount the risk posed by direct hit point damage in the ToH.

I suppose this is why save-or-die stuff or weirdness like the sliding lava see-saw have a reputation as "fatal" whereas simple high HP dealing monsters don't. They weren't as easy to heal in 1st Ed as in 3rd Ed (my cleric player grumbled a bit about not having spontaneous Cure casting the first time) but certainly a level 10 character can get his hands on some cure spells and healing potions without huge problems, and Raise Dead is an option.

Even by Bullgrit's definition that no-one takes 10HP or more through the tomb so far I can still imagine a group theoretically could do that. It might not be likely, especially depending on their route, but not impossible. The biggest HP sinks for my group were the gargoyle and the chests - both optional encounters. It's still more about luck than skill but I can imagine a fortunate group bypassing those and getting to Area 18 without having taken much more than a pit trap fall or two.

 

[FoxWander]

[MENTION=1356]FoxWander[/MENTION]

This was a 2E game, right? What level were you guys?

Yes, this was 2E. I actually went and dug up the characters my wife and I ran thru this just a couple of days ago. We were all in the 13th to 16th level range of the dungeon. We counted multi-classed as the full levels of their highest class and half the levels of other classes. So my character, a 10th level bard (jongleur kit)/8th level fighter, was "14th" level. My wife ran a 13th level mage/5th level fighter. We also had a fighter and a cleric who were both single classed. And the fighter had a squire who was lower level than us and some kind of fighter/spellcaster (not sure if mage or cleric).

 

[PulpCruciFiction]

I'm currently running the 3.5e update of ToH, and we're having a blast with it. Our group isn't really into the super-paranoid, 10-foot poles and test animals style of gaming, so I decided to run this dungeon similar to Gen Con's Tower of Gygax. We made nine pre-gen characters, then everyone grabs one at random and heads into the dungeon. When a character dies, he goes to the bottom of the pile, the player grabs a new one, and he pops up with the group somehow. The death sequences are often hilarious, and the players get the benefits of puzzling their way through the dungeon without everything getting bogged down by searching every five feet for traps. So far I've got thirteen kills, and the characters are currently in the room with three chests (the snakes just killed the rogue).

 

[FoxWander]

I really liked the 3.5 update of the Tomb- even the extra monsters it added aren't too bad (and they can easily be ignored by purists). The update has much better editing and organization. There's actual boxed text to read instead of trying to parse Gary's stream of consciousness style. Also attempts are made to give rules justification for many 'DM fiat' type magical effects of the original- such as the many 'magic will not work' here effects.

I think it loses some of the original's gritty feel (everything now has a quantifiable DC so it can become just a series of skill checks) but makes up for it in organization and ease-of-use.

 

[Bullgrit]

Just FYI for whoever cares: I'm on vacation this week. So I won't be participating in this discussion for a while.

Bullgrit