Inherent Bonuses and Magic Items

[Blue]

The idea of inherent bonuses is to allow a campaign with NO magic items. Not sure why you would want to "mix and match" so to speak. Are you going for a higher power campaign? Or just fiddling with the character builder?

The rules about alternate rewards in the DMG2 that describe inherent bonuses talk about reducing the number of items - not removing them. That pretty clearly states that they aren't for "NO magic items".

Anyway, inherent bonuses are the equivalent of the level 1/6/11/16/21/26 "+X magic item" for three slots. The combat maths are balanced around more slots that can be filled, and those slots potentially (often) having an extra property or power.

 

[BobTheNob]

In our current campaign we are using inherent bonus. Our items however are ALL house creations (Dont use so much as one item from the books) and all of them are enhancement bonus free. Items in our game give you the "funky caveats" and increase in power with tier.

Its alot like the paradigm of the shield. Current design for magical shield has no enhancement bonus, yet they are magic items none-the-less with heroic/paragon/epic variants. We have just brought weapons, armor and amulets under the same consideration.

p.s. using all house creation items is so that a) All items fit nicely with this design paradigm and b) Frankly the equipment they have come up with to date ranges from the absurd to the irrelevant

 

[Arlough]

So, under this theory, a 12th-level character could use a Level 4 +1 Avalance Hammer, charge with it for 2[w], get +3 attack and damage, and 3d6 crits for a very reasonable price. Which doesn't quite seem fair to me, but I'm willing to go with it.

Thoughts?

-O

As noted elsewhere, this is a variant rule and therefore more in the DM's lap than other rules. That stated, the way I would rule it is the level 12 character you mention would actually get +4 on the attack (+3 enhancement bonus, +1 for charging) but would only get a 1d10 and the target knocked prone on a crit, and if the player wanted more than that (say, the 3d10 that a +3 Avalanche Hammer would provide), he\she would have to buy a bigger hammer. Basically, the crit property is built into the weapon, and defined by the weapon.
But, I also would reduce the amount of treasure rewarded, along with the availability of magic items in shops.
If they want the higher crit, they have to pay for it.
In my game, they can pay either with money by buying new weapons, or with a feat I created called Critical Enhancement.

Critical Enhancement
Benefit: When you score a critical hit, deal 1d4 extra damage for each point of enhancement bonus added to the attack.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each additional time you take this feat, increase the extra damage die by one die size.​

This hasn't yet been a problem, because if someone wants to use Jackal Ploy or the Dagger Master PP to build a character centered around crits, they are paying for it huge in the feat department. And so far nobody has been interested spending 6 feats on getting 3d20 crit damage. I may have to modify it later, though.

You can also use inherent bonuses when you want characters to care less about weapon/armor/neck items, ie they don't NEED to spend lots of money to keep their axe up to level, so they can get neat rings, potions, wondrous items. I've experienced this in a campaign and didn't think it was a bad idea at all.

I totally agree with this.
Aside from the Barbarian and Ranger (who both used the feat above to buy up to d10's and d8's respectively), not many people had explosive crits. But, everybody liked it because it meant they were no longer searching the world for their next weapon. The guy playing the barbarian especially liked it because he wanted his character to use a family heirloom weapon as part of the character's identity.

Also, now that I am thinking about it, I would make anything enchanted with Distance Weapon (AV1.068) a rare item. I don't think any of my players have noticed that one, yet.

 

[Otterscrubber]

I like inherent bonuses, but I dont see them forcing someone to completely elminate magic items. The just eliminate the need for the enhancement bonus. In my opinion, this actually makes magic items "magic". I am not getting that sword because it is +3, but because it is useful against ghosts, or demons or what not. Same with the magic cloak that protects me from fire. It actually makes for flavor and returns magic items to being special.

Typcially we have house ruled that the inherent bonus overrides the magic of the item. So if a level one character gets a +5 whatever, they are simply not gifted enough to use the items full potential. Also, as the character grows in power, so does the item they posess. Each to their own I guess but this makes magic items more interesting as characters now seek items that have a quality that is useful to them in some way and negates the need to get bonus to hit and damage, which i have always found to be very meta-gamey.

 

[Ferghis]

Sorry about the thread necromancy, but in my contorted mind, this seemed to be the best way to bring attention to the following information.

In not so remote history, someone posted a thread in which they had calculated the appropriate treasure parcels for a party that uses inherent bonuses. I realize some think that inherent bonuses are only for campaigns that don't use much magic items, but I disagree completely. It's true that they were also published in a low-magic-item setting, but they were previously published in the DMG2, without any reference to how many magic items a setting might contain.

Anyway, I guess I'm asking if anyone remembers the thread in which someone calculated proper treasure parcels (or maybe it was wealth and items to give to upper level characters) that was posted here a few months ago. Anyone?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Some time ago, I wrote a WBL chart for 4e, but I don't think that's what you're thinking of.

Anyway, you don't need 'proper parcel' parameters when using inherent bonuses. Inherency doesn't give the PCs anything that they wouldn't get otherwise, so parcels become purely a matter of DM fiat.

 

[S'mon]

Anyway, I guess I'm asking if anyone remembers the thread in which someone calculated proper treasure parcels (or maybe it was wealth and items to give to upper level characters) that was posted here a few months ago. Anyone?

Bueller?

Here y'go:
____________


Gear for New & Replacement PCs

New PC Starting Wealth

Level 1-3: 100gp
Level 4-5: 1 Item Level 3, 100gp
Level 6-7: 2 Items Level 3 & Level 5, 100gp
Level 8-10: 3 Items Level 3, Level 5, Level 8, 100gp

Level 11-13: 3 Items Level 5, Level 8, Level 10, 100gp
Level 14-15: 3 Items Level 8, Level 10, Level 13, 100gp
Level 16-17: 3 Items Level 10, Level 13, Level 15, 100gp
Level 18-20: 3 Items Level 13, Level 15, Level 18, 100gp

Level 21-23: 3 Items Level 15, Level 18, Level 20, 100gp
Level 24-25: 3 Items Level 18, Level 20, Level 23, 100gp
Level 26-27: 3 Items Level 20, Level 23, Level 25, 100gp
Level 28-30: 3 Items Level 23, Level 25, Level 28, 100gp


Starting items may be from PHB 1 & 2, and from the Essentials books' listed Common items.


IMCs starting items may be sold pre-game for 20% of book value, to a maximum of 100,000gp per item - this assumes they were sold in a metropolis like Waterdeep, and affects only the level 25 (base 625,000gp), & level 28 (base 2,125,000gp) items. The PC may use the money raised to buy PHB/PHB2/Essentials items, each item being of level 18 (85,000gp book value) or lower, using their standard book value (100%).
High-Epic PCs are usually better off keeping their two highest level items and only selling the lowest. Eg a Level 28-30 PC can convert their Level 23 item to 85,000gp and use that money to buy various lower-level stuff, while keeping their Level 25 & Level 28 items.

I use the pre-Essentials rule on Item Dailies: you may use 1/day, +1 per Milestone. There is no restriction on how many may be used in a single encounter.
___________

I have the above archived at: The Southlands Campaign: 4e D&D in the Wilderlands: New PCs

The system follows the DMG2 guidance - remove the top & bottom items from a treasure parcel set by level, so each PC gains 2 items (or equivalent boons, training etc) per 5 levels of play, instead of 4. I then correlated that with the new-PCs wealth system of PCs starting with 3 item & wealth equal to the level-1 item; effectively that's 4 items; in mine you get 3, typically of lower level. I think it's pretty elegant.

 

[Ferghis]

Thanks! I'd give you xp, but I can't. Can someone cover me?

 

[KarinsDad]

Here's how I run inherent for my game.

1) All PCs get inherent bonuses for to hit/damage and defenses. Inherent bonuses do not apply to criticals.

2) If a PC has a weapon, implement, neck item, or armor magic item, the item works as advertised. A +2 weapon will do 2dX damage on a critical (X being based on the item), regardless of whether the PC is level 4 or level 24.

3) The exception to #2 is that the bonus to hit or defense will always be a minimum of the current inherent bonus.

4) Level related effects of weapon, implement, neck item, and armor are based on the magic item in question. For example, a level 7 Dwarven Thrower will do 4 extra points of damage with the Daily power, regardless of the level of the user.


So yes, PCs can use a normal sword at level 7 and get +2 to hit, but +0d6 for a critical. PCs with a +1 sword would typically be +2 to hit and +1d6 on a critical at level 7.

The reason I run it this way is because I am not using inherent bonuses to get rid of the Christmas tree effect per se and make it low magic world.

I'm using inherent bonuses to keep all PCs close to each other with their to hits and defenses. Players will still want to go out and acquire magical items. As DM, I'm just not forced to constantly hand them out at specific points in time that often do not match good times in the storyline.

The lack of a inherent bonus critical and of these items not auto-improving in other areas means that players will often want to upgrade them. On the other hand, if a PC acquires an item at low level that just works great for that PC, s/he doesn't have to ever upgrade it or trade it in for something else. The most important aspects (to hit/damage, or defense) of the item continue to improve with level.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I have started (and will continue) using Inherent Bonuses alongside normal magic weapons and armour. I trialled it in my current game, and I'm never going back. No more christmas tree, no more item treadmill.

Here is how I deal with both inherent bonuses and items.

Items do not add their pluses directly to your attacks and damage at all. They add to your Effective Level on the Inherent Bonus chart. That way, even a master of melee combat will still eke some benefit out of wielding a humble +1 weapon, but by the same token, dropping a +5 weapon at level 1 won't destroy the game - someone will just end up +1 ahead of his comrades.

Critical hit damage is based entirely off of the Inherent bonus chart as well. The only thing a weapon can do is boost the die size.

In my homebrew world, there are no magic item shops, so players will be hard pressed to game the system. In effect, all items become 'rare,' though PCs can make items, finding the materials to do so is still entirely in the DM's hands.