D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 DM Considering 4E

[Hussar]

Of course hit points have been abstract for decades, that's well known from back in 1e days.

But for me, there's still a big difference between using healing spells/potions in previous editions the equivalent in 4e. As of the materials in 4e that I have, the ability to receive healing is mainly driven by internal resources that are hard to increase. Keoghtum's Ointment may give you an additional healing surge, but a potion uses one of the inherent ones you've got rather than represent healing in its own package. By contrast, previous edition healing is via external resources. That changes how characters can plan to manage their own resources. And it's a change I don't really appreciate. It makes it hard for PCs to pool their resources to support the character whose bad luck is really getting him pulverized.

For the OP, if you like the changes, by all means play 4e. If the changes rub you the wrong way, then don't.

Just to add to Nem D's point. If you look at just about every single class, at any given level, someone is granting hit points without using a surge. Whether it's bonuses to surges, hit points gained on a hit, temporary hit points, whatever, the idea that surges are some sort of hard ceiling on the adventuring day is not supported by the actual mechanics.

This was a bugaboo that IIRC Jason Alexander on the Alexandrian blog has tried to bring up as a criticism of 4e. It just doesn't work. There are WAY too many ways to increase the party's healing for this hard ceiling to be anything more than a very, very soft cushiony one.

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

So here's my experience which may or may not be true for you depending on a number of things, including how you approach and run 4E, what types of things you notice, your attitude about things, and the energy you give and get from your players/DM. I found all to be true for me

+ You may find a lot of situations you didn't know how to resolve with rules will become clear to you. A lot of rules may stick in your head since they're easier to remember
- You or your players may find the rules bland and gamey
+ You may find you don't need to rely on 4E books for ideas, since many mechanics and situations from other games or even novels can be resolved easier with simple mechanics that support innovation. For example if I know Planescape 2E I could easily just run it. I'd have to reskin a few monsters but otherwise it'd be gravy. You wouldn't have to prep the translation.
- You or other players may be frustrated old mechanics-heavy books from previous editions don't have much value besides ideas and pretty pictures. And I wouldn't dare try to run a combat-heavy module from older editions like Keep on the Borderlands in 4E - the bland story, constant skirmishes and narrow hallways without interactive terrain just won't work at all. This is a different beast.
+ You may challenge yourself to DM in new ways and learn how to do new things because...
- You may try to run 4E like previous editions and fail. Things that worked previously may not work in this environment (usually combat-related).
+ You may find it easier to balance combats. This should prevent you from accidentally TPKing your party
- You may run combats improperly and use five brutes, too many solos, or a monster with a much higher level and AC than your group in place of multiple monsters with the same XP value
+ You may challenge yourself to make encounters more 3D and spatially interesting with pits of lava and hazards and known traps. This rocks
- You may find you're spending a lot of time designing awesome encounters and subconsciously railroading players into them because you put so much effort into the battle
+ PCs may be happy the group is balanced and everyone contributes nearly equally in and out of combat
- Players may complain that all classes are too balanced, everything feels the same, and "fighters cast daily spells"
+ You may find players and monsters use their terrain in interesting and creative ways or invent awesome narratives to describe their actions and reinterpret powers in very interesting ways
- You may find players constantly narrate their turn as "I use my at-will power. I use my howling strike daily". No matter how much you try to explain that they have freedom to give their character as much flavor as they want. If the DM does this repeatedly the game is probably hopeless...
+ You will spend a lot less time looking things up in books
- People will probably say you play "dumbed-down" D&D because complexity is good? To hell with them.
+ High level combats may be more interesting and faster than in previous editions
- Low level combats may take much longer than in previous editions, possibly killing interest early
+ You may become sick of the combat slog and roleplay more and fight less
- You may become sick of the combat slog and roleplay more and fight less
+ You may make your combats less frequent and more meaningful to the plot.
- You may find random encounters to be utterly pointless slogs
+ You may feel more empowered and less afraid of house cats at level one
- You may feel that leveling is a predictable treadmill of watching a formula increase
+ You may be very pleasently surprised to learn 4E is as much a roleplaying game as you want it to be (there's this myth that it's all about pushing chess pieces)
- You may find some players just can't roleplay and make it shine, or simply won't roleplay because they think that's not what 4E is. These players are usually disgruntled you made them switch to 4E, and hey, maybe they have good reasons for that...
+ Visual players may be more immersed since they see representations of the actions and have a hard time following the image in your head
- You may spend a lot of time and money on managing and setting up miniatures and knick-knacks to represent the action, or tech (projectors
+ You may find players appreciate not having a "15 minute adventuring day"
- You may find healing surges prolong combat into very long affairs (amongst other factors) by pushing everyone back up to full resources and removing tension from combat unless the players die. This is especially true you're a 1-combat per session type group. This for me was the greatest turn-off for me, with the exception of the next negative
+ Your will to game and DM may be rejuvenated by a bunch of new possibilities and frontiers
- You may find when RL gets in the way of your players playing your campaign that nobody wants to play 4E, meaning the hundreds of dollars you spent on gaming books are just going to sit on the shelf. And you start rants on enworld, and get bitter and partisan about editions. And then you decide to invest in 3.5 or PF of whatever other people know just because it isn't all about what you want.
+ You may learn a lot from 4E you can apply to other games
- In a public forum or amongst company that doesn't feel the need to feign politeness you probably will incite anger any time you make any kind of comparison of two editions, no matter what you say or how diplomatically you say it. These things are divisive.

I hope that was fairly even-handed. I could triple this list if I wanted to.

These are all things that seem to happen pretty organically when playing 4E. Many of these outcomes do seem to be tied to the nature of the system but I'm sure people have solutions to mitigate the negatives. Maybe I'm doing it wrong - I'm sure I'm not the first

I play 3.5 now because I found 4E combat to be too long, I found healing surges took the edge off, and people kept asking for 3.5. Not my favorite game, but I like it.

 

[darkwing]

The biggest difference...
In 4e, combat is more fun. It's very tactical and players (regardless of class or level) have meaningful choices in combat. It's far more dynamic than previous editions as long as you take the time to make interesting environments and enemy configurations (which is easy to do in 4e). Also team synergy is more important. There are several effective combos that can be used against monsters if the characters plan their builds together to work with each other. There is no more thac0. All classes hit progression is the same.

There are 4 basic "roles" and each plays differently. The Defender keeps enemies occupied on him and protects allies. The Striker is the damage dealer. The Leader buffs and heals. The Controller deals AoE and debuffs monsters.

Also, rogues can now do their extra damage to undead (and everything else). Hooray! Basically, Martial characters are fun and more action hero like in general. Spell casters no longer have an infinite variety of spells in combat (they can still access them out of combat though using rituals).

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

The biggest difference...
In 4e, combat is more fun.

I don't disagree with any of our rationale but I didn't necessarily find this to be true. Everything in 4E is approximately one step forward and approximately one step back, more or less depending on who you ask.

I found combats to be a slog unless I spent significant amounts of time making them AWESOME. I was designing interesting 3d terrain, printing out monster stats, balancing brutes and strikers, and trying to come up with logical interpretations of some of the monsters abilities. It took longer to design encounters than I ever spent in any game.

I switched to C&C and 3.5 (depending on group) and found combats before high levels run much faster (especially for C&C). This allows us more time for fighting different monsters and roleplaying. I can also have interesting fights with one monster (solos can be HP punching bags) and not worry about balancing soldiers and controllers. And without healing surges and lower hit points combat is much scarier. It can be stressful.

So now I
- Improv stats. NPCs don't need skills or spells lists. I can approximate it to what feels right in my head. This saves a ton of time - something people keep complaining about with 3.5
- Make smaller encounters that have an impact since players don't pop back up to full HP with healing surges
- Carry over the spirit of page 42 (improvised attacks) into my non-4E game
- Think more spatially and add interesting terrain. 4E was crucial in learning this

 

[wedgeski]

This was a bugaboo that IIRC Jason Alexander on the Alexandrian blog has tried to bring up as a criticism of 4e. It just doesn't work. There are WAY too many ways to increase the party's healing for this hard ceiling to be anything more than a very, very soft cushiony one.

I absolutely agree with this, and it's one of my main irritations with the system. Just what was the point of introducing the (really rather excellent IMO) Healing Surge mechanic if you're going to immediately crack it open with "Cure Serious Wounds" which grants healing "as if the target had spent two Healing Surges"..? Seriously, why?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I absolutely agree with this, and it's one of my main irritations with the system. Just what was the point of introducing the (really rather excellent IMO) Healing Surge mechanic if you're going to immediately crack it open with "Cure Serious Wounds" which grants healing "as if the target had spent two Healing Surges"..? Seriously, why?

CLW/CSW are daily powers. Sure, there are some ways to pool resources and gain some healing without surges, but being out of surges is still a pretty tough spot to be in. I think it is overstating things to say that HS has been undermined as a mechanic. It is more like if you have a PC that has gotten beat up enough to be out of surges and the party needs to press on you can kind of patch it up enough to get on with it. It will be more expensive and risky but it gives you a bit of a fallback, that's all.

 

[Fishbone]

The healing surge thing is bad when you have a Solo fight and you are new to the system and you aren't really maxed out or anything, and then the guy goes... OH! I GET ALL MY HIT POINTS BACK! You spent 1 hour fighting for no consequence because the players knew to make their healing surges really count, so everybody is at full health and the only thing that happened was everybody blew a bunch of healing surges.

That happened a few times with my first times playing 4E about 3 years ago. There was a bulette fight and it was my first really sour experience with the game. It took an iconic, decades-old bad guy and made a 1 hour fight with it a boring, consequence free chore.

Sometimes 4E fights felt like that. Formality, we each Healing Surge, seeya next week.

I am interested in getting back into 4E, honestly. Not playing 4E is like not playing basketball, football and soccer all rolled up into one. It is still the game, by far and away the flagship. It is chapping my backside worse than full plate that I see all these cool games and campaigns and 4E products and I don't know how to play and don't really know if I'd care to.

 

[filthgrinder]

Just what was the point of introducing the (really rather excellent IMO) Healing Surge mechanic if you're going to immediately crack it open with "Cure Serious Wounds" which grants healing "as if the target had spent two Healing Surges"..? Seriously, why?

Well it is to serve a different story concept. A healing word is the cleric calling on their divine powers to boost the power that is already in you, and give you the chance to push forward. They are release the "magic that is already inside you". Cure Serious Wounds, is more than that. They are calling on the divine powers to actually cure you. The magic is not allowing you to unleash your own potential, it is infusing you from outside aid, allowing you to go above and beyond what is already there.

It is also to allow the cleric to fill that role of being able to bring back that person who is nearly dead. When you are out of healing surges, you really are in rough shape. Surgeless healing, let's you do that last minute save that can allow retreat to rest.

When I plot out an adventure, I like to challenge the party by giving them just enough encounters between rests where they'll be almost out of resources (or at least, the defender will be almost run dry of surges). This means that my players got into the mindset of knowing they have to plan for an entire run of encounters, instead of going nova in the first couple and then running.

 

[NewJeffCT]

The healing surge thing is bad when you have a Solo fight and you are new to the system and you aren't really maxed out or anything, and then the guy goes... OH! I GET ALL MY HIT POINTS BACK! You spent 1 hour fighting for no consequence because the players knew to make their healing surges really count, so everybody is at full health and the only thing that happened was everybody blew a bunch of healing surges.

That happened a few times with my first times playing 4E about 3 years ago. There was a bulette fight and it was my first really sour experience with the game. It took an iconic, decades-old bad guy and made a 1 hour fight with it a boring, consequence free chore.

Sometimes 4E fights felt like that. Formality, we each Healing Surge, seeya next week.

I am interested in getting back into 4E, honestly. Not playing 4E is like not playing basketball, football and soccer all rolled up into one. It is still the game, by far and away the flagship. It is chapping my backside worse than full plate that I see all these cool games and campaigns and 4E products and I don't know how to play and don't really know if I'd care to.

In my last campaign (3.5E), the players were like level 17 and having a climactic showdown with a drow war party that was supported by some powerful ogre barbarians that served as the muscle for the drow. One drow was a powerful duskblade that had been a party nemesis since they were level 3. The drow had two high level priestesses and two high level wizards in their group as well.

So, it was 8 PCs and 2 key NPC allies against maybe a dozen drow and maybe 15-20 ogre barbarians. I think there was a hill giant barbarian in there as well as the leader of the muscle group.

The battle was really a knock down drag out fight with everybody pulling out all the stops, PCs and drow flying all over the battlefield. Finally, after a session and a half of non-stop combat that included a divine and a psionic Revivify on the PC's side and a divine one on the drow side, both sides were down to nearly zero in terms of hit points.

The party cleric got into position and cast Mass Heal. Everybody in the party went from near zero hit points to full, or near full, hit points after she got her spell off on time. Other than having burned off spells and power points and been mostly debuffed, the party was basically unscathed.

The drow priestess was, luckily, in position to do the same for her side (which would have brought the combat into a third session). However, right before her turn in the round, one of the PCs charged the priestess and landed a critical hit on her, dropping her and stopping her from casting Mass Heal on her own side. The fully healed party then made short work of the remaining drow.

I honestly said a silent "thank goodness" over that - it would have been frustrating to have played two entire sessions of a great combat, only to have everybody almost starting over from square 1 due to twin Mass Heals.

That was 3.5E, though.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The healing surge thing is bad when you have a Solo fight and you are new to the system and you aren't really maxed out or anything, and then the guy goes... OH! I GET ALL MY HIT POINTS BACK! You spent 1 hour fighting for no consequence because the players knew to make their healing surges really count, so everybody is at full health and the only thing that happened was everybody blew a bunch of healing surges.

That happened a few times with my first times playing 4E about 3 years ago. There was a bulette fight and it was my first really sour experience with the game. It took an iconic, decades-old bad guy and made a 1 hour fight with it a boring, consequence free chore.

Sometimes 4E fights felt like that. Formality, we each Healing Surge, seeya next week.

I am interested in getting back into 4E, honestly. Not playing 4E is like not playing basketball, football and soccer all rolled up into one. It is still the game, by far and away the flagship. It is chapping my backside worse than full plate that I see all these cool games and campaigns and 4E products and I don't know how to play and don't really know if I'd care to.

Hmmmm, well, yeah, I'm sure if you are facing a single fight that isn't super hard and it is the only one in a day of adventuring then you're correct. OTOH in the same situation (lets say a 1e party that runs into a bulette when they're around the same level) they'll unless one or more spells and perhaps some melee type attacks, there's no need to hold back. Someone might get bitten, nobody is at all likely to actually die, and at the end the cleric fires off a couple CLW/CSW and the party trudges back to the inn, where if they took enough damage they might spend an extra day going through another round of spells before they're ready to go again. In 4e they'll be good to go the next day for sure, not really much difference.

Of course if the 4e encounter happened to be level+4 then things might not be quite so clear cut... Someone can easily die, though it isn't THAT likely. Pretty much like the 1e fight.

I just don't see this vast difference. It is in the nature of the basic D&D genre that PCs can get back up, dust themselves off, and maybe after a night's sleep get back to it. Has always been so. It just isn't that much fun in heroic fantasy to spend large amounts of time dealing with the dull consequences of a fight (IE healing a couple hit points a day and being out of action for days or weeks or months that it would realistically take to heal from a landshark bite).

I know when I first read through 4e healing surges seemed rather foreign and seemed like they would feel hokey but I really haven't found it to be so in play. Obviously the other advise is not to have one encounter in a day. HS loss during a series of encounters is NOT no consequence. You can easily have your party sucked down to TPK with that thought in mind, because when you do run out of surges, things get ugly FAST. Even with THP and some surgeless healing, you just aren't going to shrug that off.