D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 DM Considering 4E

[wedgeski]

CLW/CSW are daily powers. Sure, there are some ways to pool resources and gain some healing without surges, but being out of surges is still a pretty tough spot to be in. I think it is overstating things to say that HS has been undermined as a mechanic. It is more like if you have a PC that has gotten beat up enough to be out of surges and the party needs to press on you can kind of patch it up enough to get on with it. It will be more expensive and risky but it gives you a bit of a fallback, that's all.

Point taken, but in my opinion if you want to avoid undermining your awesome new HS mechanic, *don't* allow seminal healing powers to act independently of it. It's just one of those areas, to me, where exceptions should be right on the edge of play.

 

[Gort]

Funnily enough, I had almost the same experience with a Tarrasque at the end of my World's Largest Dungeon campaign. The party went in pretty well prepped, the cleric hung back and Heal'ed anyone that needed it. End of the fight? Three, maybe four Heal spells cast, a number of buffs cast and the entire party at full hit points with a dead Tarrasque on the floor.

Talk about a disappointment.

I did find the Heal spell to be a big offender in 3.5e - 150 HP for a single standard action basically means that monsters now have to do 150 HP or more per round in order to be a real threat. Buffs were dreadful, as well - who thought it'd be a good idea to have to track upwards of ten buff effects with durations measured in rounds? My fighter actually ended up with effectively two character sheets - one without buffs, and one with. God help me when the dispel spells started coming out. I seem to recall needing some obnoxiously high number to hit my own AC, as well, since there were tons of ways to get more AC but only a few to get a higher attack bonus.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I seem to recall needing some obnoxiously high number to hit my own AC, as well, since there were tons of ways to get more AC but only a few to get a higher attack bonus.

I looked at it the opposite way. You could boost your attack bonus just by gaining levels, but not your AC. As a result, PC fighters couldn't miss... but hardly anything could miss them either.

It was difficult to pick out monsters whose ACs could challenge the fighters without making it impossible for rogues or other characters to hit them. (One reason I found Power Attack to be OP for two-handed weapons, despite math alleging this to be balanced.)

 

[Someone]

My own thoughts about the matter that may tie or now with what's been said.

I started seriously not liking 4e. But over time I realized that while some flavor of past editions have been lost it solves many other things.

One perfect example is high level play. I'm a Story Hour reader, and remember fondly Piratecat's, Sagiro's, Sepulchrave's and Wulf Ratbane's story hours. I've noticed how starting at medium level almost all gameplay bogs down on divining what the bad guys are doing and where they are, foil the mind blanks and counter divinations with some clever rules lawyering and protect themselves with their own counter-divination measures. In between combats, it quickly becomes a sucession of legend lore, vision, scry, find the path, teleports, prying eyes, magnificient mansions, mind blanks, and wind walks. Then combat happens and it's usually a 30 minute buff routine, then a teleport, followed by 2-3 round brutal affair with multiple save or die spells and people rollercoasting from full health to death and full health again in a matter of seconds. While I don't believe it can't be funny I think there are alternatives to that and 4e offers a valid one.

Second, I remember having a serious lot of trouble designing adventures past 11th level. Thankfully tools for applying templates and designing NPCs became common, because statting anything was a complete nightmare, and caculating the starts on anything like a half dragon ogre barbarian was Hell.

Third, I remember being so used to 3e's simulationist philosophy that I couldn't conceive anyting else. It was actually my fault, not the game system's – though it has its part in it. I'll clarify with an example. I once tried to create the typical BBEG necromancer, a otherwise normal guy who had an undead army. 3E being 3e, he had to follow the same rules as PCs, so there had to be an explanation about how to he was able to do that. A custom prestige class? A special magic item (and what if the Pcs got it?), a gift from a god (wouldn't make this the god the ultimate BBEG?). In 4e, NPCs don't follow the same rules as players; combat stats are an arbitrary mechanic, not an attempt at simulation. So if you create a human solo with 5 times the amount of hit points a player of that level would have you dont feel, uh, guilty? Yes, that may be the word.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I did find the Heal spell to be a big offender in 3.5e - 150 HP for a single standard action basically means that monsters now have to do 150 HP or more per round in order to be a real threat. Buffs were dreadful, as well - who thought it'd be a good idea to have to track upwards of ten buff effects with durations measured in rounds? My fighter actually ended up with effectively two character sheets - one without buffs, and one with. God help me when the dispel spells started coming out. I seem to recall needing some obnoxiously high number to hit my own AC, as well, since there were tons of ways to get more AC but only a few to get a higher attack bonus.

Agreed - in my last campaign (3.5E), we had one guy that was an elf and he took some special champion of corellon PrC, which allowed him to wear full plate and still get his full dex bonus once he reached a certain level. (I think it was full plate)

Plus, he had the advanced expertise feat which allowed him to sacrifice up to his Base Attack Bonus to add to his AC as a Dodge Bonus. (So, -18 to hit, +18 to AC at the end of the campaign)

Additionally, he had a defending sword, which also gave him a Dodge bonus to AC, and I think a Dodge bonus is the only bonus that could stack with another Dodge Bonus.

So, AC:10, +13 for mithril full plate+4 (armor bonus); +5 for his large mithril shield+3 (armor); +6 for his DEX; +18 for his expertise (dodge); +4 for his defending sword (dodge); +4 for a Ring of Protection (deflection bonus) and/or Holy Aura; maybe a +1 dodge bonus from Haste; and we're up to an AC in the low 60s without any other buffing spells and/or minor items.

Of course, if he's taking 18 off of his "to hit" rolls, he's not hitting too much, either, at higher levels.