XPH: Elan Balanced?

[RUMBLETiGER]

Probably long overdue to reply to this topic, but I've had a few thoughts about their racial powers.

I don't think any of the people who participated in this conversation are still around. But welcome anyway! I dig psionics.

 

[xigbar]

I don't think any of the people who participated in this conversation are still around. But welcome anyway! I dig psionics.

Some of them are around on other boards.

 

[Jimlock]

what about those poor Elan who...

Uhhh... what? kidding right?

Give me another LA+0 race who gets +4 on ALL saves as an immediate actions (and I'm being polite to not mention the cure stuff) and then I might go from calling them hyper-rich to super-rich.

Yes, an Elan's favoured class is Psion, but not everyone is going to powergame that way. Some of us actually like unusual class/race combinations for roleplaying reasons. (Although my Elan is a Soulknife)

lol...

Roleplaying reasons? They are identical to humans, only with a +4 on ALL saves and PPs... what's to roleplay...?


sorry for coming out like that... it's just that my hate for psionics and this totally broken book of theirs overwhelms me sometimes...

 

[Dandu]

Elan racial abilities are not overpowered, as has been explained countless times by many optimizers through the history of D&D. Protip: If people who love to powergame do not consider something overpowered, it probably isn't overpowered.

For your education and enlightenment, I suggest you read the New, Virtually No-Nonsense Guide to Psions, which gives the almighty Elan race a rating of "blue", which means that it is a "very strong choice, but lacking in a measure of power." Kalashtar and Synads actually get a "purple" rating, which means that they are are actually the best races for psions.

Humans also get a "purple" rating. Guess that bonus skill point and extra feat really help out. You will probably want to complain about how overpowered humans are, and how broken the PHB is. Go ahead, I'll wait.

 

[Jimlock]

Ok... let me put it this way...

When an optimizer provides the following rating:

Purple: These picks make excellent Psions because they enhance the Psion’s strengths.
Blue: Very strong choices, but lacking in a measure of power.
Green: Good choices, but may not play to the strengths of the class.
Black: You won’t be hurting or helping yourself with these picks.
Orange: Unless you have a specific build in mind, don’t select one of these.
Red: Don’t try to make this combo work.

At what color do you think I should start getting worried?

As for humans, if there ever was a feat that allowed me to take a +6 on ALL saves as an immediate action, that would always be my first choice... every time.

 

[Dandu]

At what color do you think I should start getting worried?

Then I take it we are in agreement the Elans, despite there racial abilities, are less powerful than basic humans?

As for humans, if there ever was a feat that allowed me to take a +6 on ALL saves as an immediate action, that would always be my first choice... every time.

Over Leadership? Linked Power? Mindsight? Psionic Meditation? Psicrystal Affinity? Psicrystal Containment? Overchannel? Metamorphic Transfer? Boost Construct?

Especially when there's psionic powers that are better choices for your immediate action than a +4 to saves, or even Elan DR?

Well, I suppose you would, but that says more about you than about the power of the psion, to be frank. I'm sure there are people who would choose Disintegrate over Planar Binding, but that hardly makes Disintegrate the broken one.

What has happened here is that you have fallen victim to the "ooh, shiny things!" syndrome, where you see something flashy and think it is powerful - much like what happens with Fireball for some - without realizing that the more Boring, But Practical game options are actually stronger.

I would like to conclude by reiterating a post from Tequila Sunrise from his thread Myth: the XPH is overpowered.

The Elan racial abilities, at first glance, are quite powerful. However, several things need to be taken into account before deeming them overpowered. First, usage of any of the saving throw / damage negating abilities uses the character's immediate action. Use of an immediate action means the character cannot use another immediate or swift action until after their next turn. So, a character playing an Elan could activate the damage reducing ability and negate 10 hp of damage, but if the next enemy casts a spell on him, he now cannot boost his saving throws - he's already used his one action for that round.
Second, the cost of the damage reducing ability is subpar compared to the temporary HP buff of Vigor. A quick Vigor buff will not only save the Elan power points, but grant them better HP usable for more than just a one-shot.
Third, unless the character is a psion or wilder, their number of power points is more than likely extremely limited, meaning the number of times per day they can use these abilities can usually be counted on one hand. If the character is a Psion or Wilder, they are then taking away power points used to manifest more efficient powers / offensive powers, taking away from their combat ability.
The Elan racial abilities, while nice, are mostly for extreme emergencies than anything else. Use of them on a regular basis will end up with a character who, while hard to kill, won't be able to contribute as much to combat. If you feel that these abilities need to be brought in line, limit the number of power points that can be spent on any of these abilities as 1 / HD or 1 / 2 HD, or something that suits your taste.

 

[Trance-Zg]

In one campaign, a friend played elan psion.

Whine in first few fight the racial did play a strong roll at him not dying but he was left with no PP to spent on offence and all he was is a commoner with no human bonus feat and crappy charisma

So, it's balance offence vs defense and in D&D you make progress by killing people faster not dying slower.

 

[Thanee]

I don't think any of the people who participated in this conversation are still around.

Some might be.


Still think that the Elan abilities are really powerful, especially since getting bonuses to saves in the right situation is really, really good.

But considering some other stuff that is out there (i.e. spells that grant +6 all day long), they are probably alright overall. At least they have to pay for it with a very precious resource (Power Points).

The Immediate Action is almost irrelevant. It only really uses up your next Swift Action.

Bye
Thanee

 

[kitcik]

As for humans, if there ever was a feat that allowed me to take a +6 on ALL saves as an immediate action, that would always be my first choice... every time.

OK.

 

[Jimlock]

Then I take it we are in agreement the Elans, despite there racial abilities, are less powerful than basic humans?

No we are not!

Over Leadership? Linked Power? Mindsight? Psionic Meditation? Psicrystal Affinity? Psicrystal Containment? Overchannel? Metamorphic Transfer? Boost Construct?

What can I say. I HONESTLY don't want to sound stubborn or anything, but I still believe that a +4 on ALL saves is more powerful than the above.

Since you want to compare this Saving-throw-booster racial ability to a feat, lets compare it with a Saving-throw-booster feat.

In PHB there are those three feats (Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes) that grant you each a +2 on a SINGLE save.... and what do Elans get with their LA+0? They get +4 an ALL THREE saves! Is it me... or is this a package of 6 feats into 1? Moreover, Elans, with a single feat can raise this to a total of +6 for ALL saves... another gift package of 3 feats into 1! Nice right? And what's the downside? 1PP and an immediate action? come on...

[MENTION=478]Thanee[/MENTION] mentioned Superior Resistance from SC. Despite the fact that I personally think that this is a somewhat broken spell, it is important to mention that Superior Resistance, grants "resistance bonus", which means that it does not stack with most (if not all) the magical trinkets that boost saves. Then Elan Resistance (Su) OTOH, is a racial bonus that stacks with everything. So you can have an Elan whom with a single feat and a cloak of resistance or Superior Resistance can boost ALL his saves up to +10/+11... without counting the base save scores, and without counting ability modifiers... ( and without trying to find anything else that can make this number bigger...)

Now from my perspective, a character who succeeds on all his saves with everything but a 1 is broken.

As for the quotes you brought forth:

The Elan racial abilities, at first glance, are quite powerful. However, several things need to be taken into account before deeming them overpowered. First, usage of any of the saving throw / damage negating abilities uses the character's immediate action. Use of an immediate action means the character cannot use another immediate or swift action until after their next turn.

Yes... so?

They had to take away something, and that something is not such a big deal in respect to what you get.

So, a character playing an Elan could activate the damage reducing ability and negate 10 hp of damage, but if the next enemy casts a spell on him, he now cannot boost his saving throws - he's already used his one action for that round.
Second, the cost of the damage reducing ability is subpar compared to the temporary HP buff of Vigor. A quick Vigor buff will not only save the Elan power points, but grant them better HP usable for more than just a one-shot.

I'm sorry, but IMHO, this argument sounds lame.

First things first: I never said that "Resilience" was a great ability. One need only do the math to see how Vigor is superior by far. From the beginning I'm talking about "Resistance (Su)". Everyone is smart enough to understand that's it's better to keep your immediate action for a save. Also everyone is smart enough to understand that you don't lose actions and PP for "Resilience" when Vigor gives you far more HPs for much less PPs. So by arguing that:

'in case you use "Resilience", you can't use "Resistance (Su)" so as to prove that "Resistance (Su)" is not overpowered... is a weak argument IMHO.

One will rarely use "Resilience" and only as a last resort, right before he's ready to meet his death. In that case, no, he will not be able to boost his saves on the next round... So? You can't have everything. That doesn't mean "Resilience" is useless.

Third, unless the character is a psion or wilder, their number of power points is more than likely extremely limited, meaning the number of times per day they can use these abilities can usually be counted on one hand. If the character is a Psion or Wilder, they are then taking away power points used to manifest more efficient powers / offensive powers, taking away from their combat ability.

Again, IMHO, this argument is lame. First off he forgot to mention the P.Warrior, but ... no biggie .

OF COURSE ....Elans are a race to use with psionics.

"taking away power points used to"... ???
We are talking about a SINGLE PP for ALL saves, for an entire round (not just the character's turn)... when a Psion's PPs by 10th level is in the 100s.
Let's not make a drama out of this...

The Elan racial abilities, while nice, are mostly for extreme emergencies than anything else.

Mostly wrong.

"Resistance (Su)" is not for extreme emergencies only.
Sleeping for 4 hours instead of 8 is not for extreme emergencies only.
Not being affected by spells and powers that affect humanoids only ("blah blah person" and more) IS a big deal and NOT for extreme emergencies only.


"Resilience" OTOH is.
As is Repletion (Su)... and that's about it. Even so... When an ability is used in extreme emergencies only, does not mean that the ability is less potent.

All that goes back to 0 with a -2 on charisma? I don't think so...

I would like to conclude by reiterating a post from Tequila Sunrise from his thread Myth: the XPH is overpowered.

Could be interesting...
but I stopped reading once I got here:

Myth 4: Psychic Warrior is stronger than a fighter

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