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My DM just told me he fudges rolls....

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Let's say 100HP BBEG is the standard. If I design the adventure, and crank it up to 200HP, then the fight will be longer/tougher.

Contrast that to writing down 100HP during the design stage, but deciding to crank it to 200HP during the execution of the adventure. The result is, the fight is longer/tougher.

That's the example I'm citing because some people fudge the hit-points.

This will only be indistinguishable if they always crank it up to 200 HP during the execution of the adventure. If they only crank it up to 200 when the battle is going too quick (in their opinion), then there will be a noticeable lack of short battles, and the perceptive players will start pulling their punches at the start of the battle; there's no reason to pull out Harm or Meteor Swarm or Power Strike if it will effectively add HP to the creature.
 
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playing with the dice rolls in public view and vowing to never fudge sort of assumes the system is so perfect and balanced (and run correctly by the GM), that all encounters are "fair".

No - life's not fair; why should encounters be fair? If your adventure is 30 encounters in a linear path you expect the PCs to hack through in order, I guess they all need to be defeatable so the PCs can win. I prefer to have plenty of stuff in my campaigns that the PCs are not expected to defeat and should avoid/evade if they want to live. But I don't fudge my dice rolls.
 

In the realm of not changing die results, but changing HP on a BBEG, how is that different than the work you did during adventure design, where you decided the BBEG would have 200 instead of 100 HP?

What rules guided you that said 200 HP is fair for the NPC to have when you designed the encounter?

I don't tend to design encounters in terms of "What's fair to the PCs". I know with 4e you're supposed to set a 'fair' XP budget, but in practice I create stuff environmentally, I create what I want to create, then tot up the XPV afterwards. I might have a general idea "this is an 7th level dungeon" but the encounters/monster groups may well end up as averaging EL 10, if that's what should logically go there.

Eg: I decide the entrance to the dungeon is guarded by zombies, considering the nature and power of the BBEG it looks like 2 groups each of 1 zombie hulk, 3 flesh-crazed zombies and 8 zombie shamblers would be appropriate, 24 zombies total, set up to ambush intruders from two directions.

Only once I have determined that do I total up the encounter XPV, and monster hit points comes out of the book (then always halved, my 4e house rule), not determined by me - so I don't really 'set' monster hp, at most I have a rough idea of appropriate monster level so for a 7th-8th level dungeon I set that it's an 8th level zombie hulk, not a 4th level hulking zombie.
 
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I think it's poor design to amp the hit-points out of specification, and bad practice to increase the stats during the fight. My point though is that the activity is functionally the same. The outcome is the same and the math is the same.

"Hey Bob, see if one of the goblins is still alive."
"Yeah, this one is."
"Get him up and ask him about his boss."
"Hey you. Get up. Tell me about your boss."
"Whatcha wanna know?"
"Well, does he use magic? Fight with a sword? Have a shield that protects him from the attacks of men?"
"No, he's just big. Real big."
"How big?"
"As strong and as tough as an ogre. Like I said, real big."
"Oh, okay. Thanks."
<hack> <slash> <thump>

That's functionally different from this:

"No, there's nothing special about my boss. He's a regular goblin."
<cut to the fight scene...>
"That goblin must have lied to us, because we've done 150 damage to him already!"

Watch me make it worse:

"I've been maxing out my Sense Falsehood skill for the past five levels now and I can't even detect the lies of a goblin worth 2 XP? I'm dropping the skill."
 

"No, there's nothing special about my boss. He's a regular goblin."
<cut to the fight scene...>
"That goblin must have lied to us, because we've done 150 damage to him already!"

That's very poor fudging form. If you describe the boss as being no tougher than a regular goblin, you should run it as such. Changing the stats then is like trying to fudge a die that you rolled in the open.

However, in my experience, it's very seldom that the PCs have such detailed information about their opposition.
 

That's very poor fudging form. If you describe the boss as being no tougher than a regular goblin, you should run it as such. Changing the stats then is like trying to fudge a die that you rolled in the open.

However, in my experience, it's very seldom that the PCs have such detailed information about their opposition.

Yeah, Lost Soul & S'Mon have change the parameters by declaring that the GM gave clues as to the strength level of the monster.

I don't assume that opportunity came up when I cited it. As such, the players don't know the BBEG is more different than could be expected.

Which could be pretty common when DMs customize and level monsters (Hey, the boss is just an orc, 1HD! Wrong!!!)

As to the definition of "fair" I did put that in quotes for a reason. If the party undertakes the "Quest of Level Appropriateness" as opposed to the Dungeon of TPK Monsters, then they have self selected the EL/CR they expect to fight. Changing the BBEG to be TPK-level would not be fair, especially if there are no clues the the BBEG is at TPK level of strength.

My point is, changing stuff on the fly isn't much different than choosing crappy numbers during the design stage. As such, Since it is acceptable to design badly, it must therefore be acceptable to impromptu change things.

Hopefully in fact, the reason for a FUDGE is to CORRECT a bad design choice.

One thing I always challenge in these threads is the notion that there is a pure competition and accomplishment if your GM never fudges. Your PC suceeds, ultimately because the DM interpretted your choices to let you and because he did not put impossible barriers in front of your PC. Any sense of accomplishment you get is by his cooperation. If the GM did a bad design job, you will not win. If the GM did a bad execution job, you will not win. There is more behind your victory at the game table than your choices as a player.

As such, some GMs seem to use Fudging as a correction in order to cooperate with the player's intent.
 


Eh? Maybe you're confusing me with someone else. :confused:

yeah, looks like it.

Sounds like you have a very systemized approach to determing the monsters the PC will face.

barring the PCs going off the reservation to find "really hard" monsters, does your method generally produce "fair" challenges. That is stuff that is easier or harder, but not ridiculously harder that TPK is guarranteed?
 

Yeah, Lost Soul & S'Mon have change the parameters by declaring that the GM gave clues as to the strength level of the monster.

Yeah, but I think it's important to consider that the players are making informed decisions - or at least trying to - and how fudging can effect the decision making process.

Hopefully in fact, the reason for a FUDGE is to CORRECT a bad design choice.

Back in 2E I was running a module that has some levers that controlled a poison gas in a certain room. The PCs had pulled some of the levers, getting rid of the poison gas. However, when we got to that room, I forgot or didn't read the module correctly, so I ran the encounter as if the room was full of poison gas.

Once I realized my mistake I corrected it - we went back to the beginning as if none of that had happened.

I wouldn't call that fudging. That's how I see something like "Hey guys, I gave this guy an extra 100 HP for some reason, but I have no idea why. It seems like a mistake. I'll roll back his HP to normal amounts - which means he's dead now." I don't think that's fudging either. People make mistakes. I don't see why you wouldn't declare them, deal with it, and move on.
 

yeah, looks like it.

Sounds like you have a very systemized approach to determing the monsters the PC will face.

barring the PCs going off the reservation to find "really hard" monsters, does your method generally produce "fair" challenges. That is stuff that is easier or harder, but not ridiculously harder that TPK is guarranteed?

It seems to work pretty well when I'm creating my own material (or using Dungeon Delve to supplement it). There was a purple worm I placed in the '8th level' dungeon recently that would have eaten the PCs had they fought it rather than run away from it. A brand new player did have to ask me a metagame question - did I have unbeatable opponents IMCs - once I confirmed 'yes', they were happy to run. :)

I had some trouble running a 4e conversion of Necromancer's Vault of Larin Karr sandbox - lots of meatgrinder PC deaths. I think the main issue was I should have started the PCs at 4th, not 1st, but it was my first time running 4e.

Edit: I definitely do give clues/indications as to the strength levels of monsters, dungeons, wilderness areas etc. Basically whatever I think the PCs should know. I liked this chart:

One+armed+man.png


That was what clued the PCs in to be ready to run from the mysterious tremor-causing 15'-wide bulge under the dungeon room. :)
 
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