A Tournament of Cosmic Propotions! (Immortal's Handbook Rules)

[Belzamus]

I do have the spreadsheet, Neo, though I'm not sure how much use it will be of. I barely even remember the premise I made it under. Digging through our discussion at Dicefreaks might help on that front.

To better explain the idea to Buugi, from what I can remember, it was an option to allow further instances of Effects to be taken past 6 in order for them to keep up with higher tier abilities, but they would carry a scaling cost as they accumulated, so increasing them past a certain point would be counter-intuitive.

Looking at it now, I'm not sure it's even remotely needed. Maybe the original conversation around them will shed some light on what we were thinking at the time. I'm going to go look for it.

 

[Neoiceshroom]

Okay, I'm pretty sure that's the same excel document you had sent me originally.

I was actually working on Trez Drakara with my friend last night and we more or less got him finished. Ironically he's a vampire, but polar opposite to Alabaster in almost every conceivable way. My friend whom plays Trez may even go so far as to make him a god of Vampires & Ascension (The portfolio I designed specifically to oppose Belz's deicide portfolio). Also, with such powerful contenders fighting for the Amidah, I'm not even sure the Legendary Godsend will save Alabaster from all the divine attention he has brought to himself.

I was considering making him a ring of power that would contain the quintessence to make him gain the portfolio abilities of an immortal of double Deicide. Possibly the Apostasy Cosmic ability as well as it would be extremely advantageous and fairly logical for a Godslayer to choose such an ability.

Anyway, back to Trez, here is a moch write up of his epic PRC and what's meant to do, in a nutshell. Thanks in advance for any feedback on the PRC because I will more than likely be losing consciousness soon and likely won't be able to make any more posts on this thread until sometime Monday evening.

The Untouchable
Prerequisites:
BAB: 40
Feats: Improved Uncanny Dodge or sixth sense, Dodge, Epic Dodge, Improved Dodge, Supreme Dodge
AC: Touch AC of 200 or higher
Ability Score: Dex 70

Class features:
Untouchable: At first level,The Untouchable gains an untyped bonus to his AC equal to double his class level.
Bonus Divine Ability: at second level and every 10 levels thereafter, the untouchable gains a bonus DVA from the following list.
Asomatous, Carapace, Celerity, Cunning Body, Disheartening Dodge, Eternal Freedom, Exoskeleton, Heavenly Body, Intellectual Body, Profane Body, Quickness, Sacred Body, Shunpo, Squamos, Two-Dimensional, Unknowing Body, Unyielding DR,
Abatement: at third level, and every 10 levels thereafter the untouchable gains the ability to simply automatically ignore one hostile attack action, spell, psionic power or martial maneuver. This ability functions once per round, per 10 class levels.
Unparalleled Parry: The Untouchable gains a parry bonus to his AC equal to his intelligence, wisdom, or charisma modifier, whichever is highest. He gains this bonus only so long as he is considered “armed” combat.
Opportunistic Disarm: Whenever an attack fails to hit the untouchable, once per round as a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, the untouchable may attempt a disarm against an opponent within range who attacked him in the same round. Also, the Untouchable may even disarm foes who are sure-handed and cannot normally be disarmed.
Focused Defense: Once per class level per day, the untouchable may fight defensively as a full round action, and double their AC. They gain the benefits of total concealment as well. This effect lasts 1 round per usage of this ability.
Force Field: identical to DVA.
Impossible Combat Expertise: Whenever using Combat expertise based abilities, the untouchable adds his class level as an untyped bonus to his AC.
Bonus Cosmic Ability:
abrogate, counter strike, cursed body, daunting body, Elusion, Hyperstosis, Learned ability immunity, Legendary (ability score), nebulous, nullification, Specular, Spirited Away, Supersonic, Unearthly Combat Expertise
Perfect Defense: Once per day the Untouchable may enter a state in which he simply cannot be hit by any attack that requires an attack roll, melee, ranged or otherwise. He may gain one additional use of this ability per day at 20th level and every 10 levels thereafter. The rounds in which this ability is used need not be consecutive.

 

[Belzamus]

That Touch AC prereq is very questionable. There's a reason you don't see such things normally. (That being that it's an extremely subjective and fluctuating stat, not to mention a derived stat)

Also, handing out cosmic abilities as class features is really not a good idea. It's extremely questionable for the Battle Ascendant already, who can never become an Immortal. Allowing for a class like this is pretty far over the line. Not to mention the BA has dead levels and only gets a cosmic every 20 levels.

Basically, the only way I can see this class being even remotely balanced is if it took up their equipment ECL for the levels taken in it as well. So, if a 80 HD greater deity takes 20 levels in it, he only has the equipment of an ECL 160 character, not 180.

I'm not suggesting that, though, I'm just pointing out how powerful it is. I'm sure Buugi can give us a more accurate breakdown of the math when he takes a look.

Also, how many rounds does Perfect Defense last?

 

[Neoiceshroom]

That Touch AC prereq is very questionable. There's a reason you don't see such things normally. (That being that it's an extremely subjective and fluctuating stat, not to mention a derived stat)

The prereq is there for a reason. it's designed to limit the access to the class to characters who are spec'd more for defensive capabilities rather than offensive.

Also, handing out cosmic abilities as class features is really not a good idea. It's extremely questionable for the Battle Ascendant already, who can never become an Immortal. Allowing for a class like this is pretty far over the line. Not to mention the BA has dead levels and only gets a cosmic every 20 levels.

Maybe it's not a good idea, but it seems to fit with the Theme of this tournament. More than likely I will figure out a way to balance the class by restricting some of the class features. Honestly I was thinking on having all the characters armor proficiency removed and making it so that the character loses access to these class features if they ever gain an armor or shield bonus to AC.

Basically, the only way I can see this class being even remotely balanced is if it took up their equipment ECL for the levels taken in it as well. So, if a 80 HD greater deity takes 20 levels in it, he only has the equipment of an ECL 160 character, not 180.

That sounds like an excellent balancing measure if I ever heard one. 1/8th less non-artifact equipment than other characters of his level? Perhaps require the immortal to have sacrificed one of their four artifacts (probably some form of armor soul object, or similarly powerful object) just to even take your first level in the class.

I'm not suggesting that, though, I'm just pointing out how powerful it is. I'm sure Buugi can give us a more accurate breakdown of the math when he takes a look.

Also, how many rounds does Perfect Defense last?

1 round per class level. It basically is meant to function the same way Alabaster's trans abilities function, with heavy restrictions.

 

[Belzamus]

I rather like that sacrifice idea as a prerequisite, and it would serve to balance it, I think.

 

[Neoiceshroom]

I rather like that sacrifice idea as a prerequisite, and it would serve to balance it, I think.

I think rather than forcing immortals to drop to a maximum of 3 artifacts for this build I will just basically require that whatever the character wears on their chest body slot must not have an armor bonus to AC, else they lose access to their class features.

However they will require a sacrificed item to enter the class. New special requirement. They must sacrifice an item equal to their ECL (upon attempting to take 1st level in the class) divided by two, then squared and multiplied by 10,000gp. The same way the value of a gods' artifacts are calculated.

Restricting the class from using armor or shields seems to be a good enough balancing ability that further penalizing their non-artifact wealth seems rather pointless. Also I noticed the transcendental ability Untouchable effectively replicates only requires an AC of 130 and a dex of 130. Perhaps consider dropping the required touch AC to 130, and increasing dex from 70 to 130? for the class' prerequisites?

 

[Belzamus]

What I'm contending is that the excess abilities the class gives (i.e. all the free +ECL abilities beyond the 10 ECL the class is worth) would be roughly equivalent to the value of an artifact/soul object for the Immortal taking this class. Though, what do you do if they don't have any? They just can't take the class?

Also, why the formula rather than just saying they must sacrifice one of their four artifacts?

 

[Neoiceshroom]

What I'm contending is that the excess abilities the class gives (i.e. all the free +ECL abilities beyond the 10 ECL the class is worth) would be roughly equivalent to the value of an artifact/soul object for the Immortal taking this class. Though, what do you do if they don't have any? They just can't take the class?

Also, why the formula rather than just saying they must sacrifice one of their four artifacts?

Mainly for non-immortals that still want to try and qualify for the class. If you are not an immortal and you have no artifacts to be sacrificed...what are you supposed to do.... cry? You simply sacrifice something that would be of equal GP value to an artifact if you WERE a god of your ECL.

 

[Belzamus]

Oh. I long ago adopted the 4-artifact (or "signature item that levels up with you") rule for everyone for my own games. I kind of don't like having lots of magic items on characters, if you couldn't tell from my stat blocks.

Nevermind, then, that makes sense for the normal rules.

 

[Buugipopuu]

On BESM:

I am of the opinion that BESM is a less than useful document for making anime-themed d20 games (I ran a game based on the Persona series, and didn't use any of the content from it, because none of it was appropriate). As a pop-culture product, it's showing its age, and seems to mainly be about replicating cheesy anime from the nineties. Although an update to reflect things that came out after 2004 (It's weird looking at a document that talks about giant robots and doesn't mention Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, for instance) would probably turn it into TVtropes: The RPG, as given the style of the thing TVtropes sounds like something the authors would have loved had it existed while they were writing it. It's not a bad attempt for what it is, but it's trying to be far too broad by claiming to be an 'Anime RPG', since you may as well try to make a "Books RPG", or a "Theatrical RPG". It's actually more of a "American impression of anime circa 1999 RPG", what with it seemingly being all about giant robots, big-breasted short-skirted schoolgirls who are inexplicably as strong as said giant robots, monster collecting, ninjas and superpowerful martial artists who grunt a lot. That it doesn't even think light novels or visual novels exist is telling. Perhaps I'm being too harsh on it, but it claims an awful lot by being an "anime role-player's handbook". A campaign setting, even a bare-bones one would have helped, since then it could just claim "This is our setting, and it has all these anime tropes in it", which is a lot more resistant to criticism over inclusivity than "this system is for playing anime-themed RPGs".

On the Untouchable:

The touch AC prerequisite is hard to adjudicate, and probably easy to get way earlier than you should. There's no real way of specifying a minimum AC that doesn't end with characters spontaneously losing all class features should they, say, take a bunch of Dex damage dropping them below 200 AC. It's probably also a prerequisite which will rely quite a lot on other derived abilities, so things like Abrogate, sunder or antimagic could cause them to lose all class features. A minimum number of ranks in Tumble should probably substitute.

Ability score prerequisites are also counterindicated by the design guidelines, because of the same reasons. You can qualify for the class early using items, and you lose all class features should you take a bunch of Dex damage.

A Parry bonus? Why the new bonus type? There's no particular reason why it shouldn't provide a Shield bonus or a Dodge bonus.

Opportunistic Disarm, as written, doesn't do anything. Well, doesn't do anything unless the user triggers an AoO which subsequently misses. You can't use Free Actions when it's not your turn. You want an Immediate action.

If your version of Force Field relies on DvR, then giving it to a potentially non-divine character means it sucks (which is why my version goes off HD).

Impossible Combat Expertise should be capped at the penalty to AC taken to attack rolls, so you don't just take the class and then Cexpertise for -1 every turn to get +11 AC. It should probably also just say "When taking a penalty on attack rolls due to Combat Expertise, or Fighting Defensively, the Untouchable gains an untyped bonus to AC equal to the penalty taken, or his class level, whichever is lower. When using the Total Defence action, he gains an untyped bonus to armour class equal to his class level."

Overall it seems to provide loads of benefits for very little drawback. Sure, it doesn't give great offence, but five levels of this class is basically immunity to attacks which require an attack roll. It's a Sorcerer PrC if I ever did see one. Total Defence (which, even with the minimum qualifying AC of 200 means his AC becomes 460 plus double Cha mod so in the region of 500-600 with no effort at al) and cast nothing but quickened spells. Adding the "unencumbered and no armour" restriction for all the class features helps, but still doesn't stop the fact that it's most useful for casters, who don't need their Full Round actions anyway.

And even if giving out Cosmics to PrCs was okay, which it isn't, his ability list seems to contain a lot of stuff that's really off theme. Nullification, for instance, (which is also occupying the dubious honour of the only Cosmic ability better than most Transcendental abilities) is supposed to be for umbrals and other horrifying cosmic monstrosities, not people who are good at dodging. The natural armour boosting DvAs and Cosmics also seem cross-theme, since it's not about armour, and Unyielding damage reduction. They're about getting hit and shrugging it off, not not getting hit.

I assume 'Shunpo' is a custom DvA?