Saving Throws: What Should Become of Them?

[delericho]

I think the core question here is

'Do you want effects that bypass the hit point mechanic for ending a fight?'

There's a lot of truth in that. At one point, I posited a "Resilience" system that was basically a magical analogue to Hit Points. Under that system, effects like Charm, Petrification, and so on gradually whittled your Resilience down (as weapon attacks effect hit points). When you hit 0 Resilience, you're dominated, or petrified, or whatever.

Adopting such a situation would eliminate the "all or nothing" effect of many high-level 3e death spells, and would also eliminate the "save or suck" effect - a failed save might impose a 1-round penalty, but the major effect would be the loss of Resilience. And although it would indeed suck being dropped to 0 Resilience, it would suck no more than being reduced to 0 hit points, and that's pretty much a sacred cow.

Not sure if that's a bridge too far, though. Or indeed if it's too complex to keep track of two pools.

What about allowing a save every other round for really nasty effects

That would work, although it might prove a hassle tracking whether you're on a 'save' or 'no save' round.

 

[Knightfall]

For medusas, however, I, personally, want it all or nothing (you met the gaze or did not) and determined by one roll. You save or fail. No partial save and being, partially, transformed. No additional roll to be able to shrug it off.

Would it be okay if saving per round was the core mechanic, but the game had an easy option for implementing the one-save mechanic?

Or would it have to be the other way around?

 

[Nebulous]

For medusas, however, I, personally, want it all or nothing (you met the gaze or did not) and determined by one roll. You save or fail. No partial save and being, partially, transformed. No additional roll to be able to shrug it off.

Ok, well, this might be getting over complicated, but what if monster stat blocks had built-in for a Default/Gritty campaign, with adjusted stats for both styles of play? The DM just picks the one for the type of game/encounter he wants to run? One could have rules for the slower petrification, the other would have the save-or-die option.

 

[Knightfall]

That would work, although it might prove a hassle tracking whether you're on a 'save' or 'no save' round.

Yes, I realize that it would be tough to track, but I think it's an interesting concept. Perhaps the save frequency could be based on the effects level/tier. Once per round for Heroic effects. Once every two rounds for Paragon effects. And once every three rounds for Epic effects.

 

[mmadsen]

So let me ask you this: what should happen when a spellcaster throws a hold person, or a mind flayer cuts loose with its mind blast, or a medusa catches you with its gaze? These are effects expressly intended to stop an opponent in their tracks. Should they do nothing more than cause a momentary delay?

The player should be able to use his plot-protection points to avoid character death -- but for some reason the game only allows them to be used against weapons that hit.

 

[Greg K]

Ok, well, this might be getting over complicated, but what if monster stat blocks had built-in for a Default/Gritty campaign, with adjusted stats for both styles of play? The DM just picks the one for the type of game/encounter he wants to run? One could have rules for the slower petrification, the other would have the save-or-die option.

Or label them Cinematic/Gritty and not have one or the other be default.

 

[Greg K]

The player should be able to use his plot-protection points to avoid character death -- but for some reason the game only allows them to be used against weapons that hit.

I am all for Hero Points. I would prefer them working like True20 Conviction/M&M Hero Points rather than 3e Action Points or 4e Action Points. They allow you to do a lot more including re-rolling with a +10 bonus if the second roll is 10 or less (so your minimum die result is 11) and keep the better of the two.

 

[mmadsen]

Ok, well, this might be getting over complicated, but what if monster stat blocks had built-in for a Default/Gritty campaign, with adjusted stats for both styles of play? The DM just picks the one for the type of game/encounter he wants to run? One could have rules for the slower petrification, the other would have the save-or-die option.

That introduces the problem that one version is much, much tougher than the other -- which is fine, if the rules can explicitly spell out that a Nerf Medusa is no challenge for a party that might struggle with an Instant-Death Medusa.

 

[Wormwood]

Being able to save every round with a chance to get back into the action was a godsend. Even Paizo recognized this and changed a few spells to save every round in Pathfinder, but they didn't go nearly far enough, IMO.

Perhaps I'm a jaded and entitled player, but I agree that *nothing* is less fun that having my only action for 10 minutes be "grab another beer".

I'll even concede that 4e's 55% save chance may be a little *too* generous---I'd simply prefer a low chance of getting back into play than none at all.

 

[DonTadow]

This is another problem i will chalk up to the a difference of opinion in editions, and one of the easier ones to work around. It has nothing to do wit hsaves, but more to do wit hthe things that cause saves.

4e (i want to do something every turn, even if something bad happens to me. and if something bad happens to me i want it to not last long)

pathfinder /3.5 (i want consequences to things that happen and I don't mind long term effects).

I liked the idea of save defenses before. Even wanted it in pathfinder. I thought putting the owes on th eperson or thing that wants to do "the pain" is a better way (less dice rolls more emmerision).

I do like the idea of allowing players a chance to escape a long term effect. A simple +1 each time.

That should satisify 4e fans. Now, for us 3.5/pathfinder folk. I believe that effects should have an immediate and long term action. (roll poisoin rules into this). I love adventures where we have to find something to stop or wake up a comrade. I still think people should be stoned, and such. But in combat, perhaps they are just slowed or they loose will instead of all out fear. But after the combat, another roll is made and the permament effect takes place.