Saving Throws: What Should Become of Them?

[Wormwood]

If a player gets taken out, DMs should let the player run some of the allies/henchmen or enemies (in a fight), etc. until the character can be restored or a new PC can be introduced.

Assuming 5e is a game so remarkably simple that one could generate a new character (of *any* level) by the time a combat is over, then that may be possible.

But I sincerely believe that will not be the case whatsoever.

(and I have to admit that I chuckled when I saw the word 'henchmen' in your quote. I think I saw my last henchman in 1981. Might bring 'em back for my retroclone game, if only for the lulz)

 

[Wormwood]

I am all for Hero Points. I would prefer them working like True20 Conviction/M&M Hero Points rather than 3e Action Points or 4e Action Points. They allow you to do a lot more including re-rolling with a +10 bonus if the second roll is 10 or less (so your minimum die result is 11) and keep the better of the two.

Man, bring in something like Drama Points (my favorite iteration of that mechanic, from Unisystem) and I'd be thrilled.

 

[mmadsen]

I'll even concede that 4e's 55% save chance may be a little *too* generous---I'd simply prefer a low chance of getting back into play than none at all.

Even a 10-percent chance per turn would get you back in the game within seven turns, half the time, and a 20-percent chance gets you back in three turns.

 

[Dausuul]

OK, that's a legitimate beef. So let me ask you this: what should happen when a spellcaster throws a hold person, or a mind flayer cuts loose with its mind blast, or a medusa catches you with its gaze? These are effects expressly intended to stop an opponent in their tracks. Should they do nothing more than cause a momentary delay?

These are three different effects, each of which should be handled differently.

• Hold person: There are various ways to handle this, but I favor a short but severe period of shutdown. You are unable to act for a few turns, until you shake off the effect, per the 3.5 rules. In 4E, this would be "stunned (save ends)."
• Mind flayer: I would have this be similar to hold person but weaker, a short-term daze effect (in the 4E sense, where you get one standard action per turn). Again, have it wear off quickly. I don't think a mind flayer's psi-blast needs to be totally disabling.
• Medusa: This is the tough one. My solution is to get rid of the saving throw altogether here. If you look directly at a medusa, you turn to stone, full stop. Then put a big bold note in the statblock saying, "DO NOT SPRING THIS MONSTER ON PCS WITHOUT WARNING." After that, focus on designing rules for the medusa that play up the challenge of fighting blind or having to use a mirror.

(I have a theory that "save-or-die" effects lead both players and DMs to think that the player is expected to evade them by rolling X or higher on a d20, when in fact players should evade them by not being exposed to them in the first place. Getting rid of the save makes it clear to players that they need to Not Look At The Damn Medusa, and to DMs that it's not fair to make the effect unavoidable.)

 

[Crazy Jerome]

(I have a theory that "save-or-die" effects lead both players and DMs to think that the player is expected to evade them by rolling X or higher on a d20, when in fact players should evade them by not being exposed to them in the first place. Getting rid of the save makes it clear to players that they need to Not Look At The Damn Medusa, and to DMs that it's not fair to make the effect unavoidable.)

I can't XP you right now, but I think you are right on here. I'm fairly certain this was they way Gygax and company intended saving throws from the very beginning, but it took me several months to catch on when I first started with Basic, and then took the various players a few sessions after that, even after I explicitly suggested it.

This is in direct contrast to RuneQuest, where the "Resistance" mechanic was predicated on, "Hey, let's find out if your character is hosed or not,"--with the implication that if you didn't want to risk being turned to stone, you should have stayed home.

 

[Nebulous]

One rule i would like to see removed from 5e is permanent level drain from undead. I always liked the idea of levels just naturally returning 1/day, no need to make that saving throw, i always thought that was just too demoralizing. I don't even remember how 4e handled level drain.

 

[TheFindus]

Nobody said that an adventurer's life was an easy one. It is often cut short by spell or sword and, therefore, should not be entered lightly. However, survive and the rewards are worth it- women (or men depending upon prefernce), gold, glory, and immortality in bardic tales. XD

Yeah, narratively, I am with you on this.
But I was talking about the mechanics and the reason why they are there.

 

[Wormwood]

I don't even remember how 4e handled level drain.

It didn't, primarily because level drains absolutely destroys a game where the math assumes the party is on an equal power footing.

I think it is safe to say that losing character levels when a wraith touches you is a thing of the past as far as D&D is concerned.

 

[Greg K]

[*]Medusa: This is the tough one. My solution is to get rid of the saving throw altogether here. If you look directly at a medusa, you turn to stone, full stop. Then put a big bold note in the statblock saying, "DO NOT SPRING THIS MONSTER ON PCS WITHOUT WARNING." After that, focus on designing rules for the medusa that play up the challenge of fighting blind or having to use a mirror.[
[/LIST]
(I have a theory that "save-or-die" effects lead both players and DMs to think that the player is expected to evade them by rolling X or higher on a d20, when in fact players should evade them by not being exposed to them in the first place. Getting rid of the save makes it clear to players that they need to Not Look At The Damn Medusa, and to DMs that it's not fair to make the effect unavoidable.)

I, definitely, think Fort and Will are bad choices for the saves against Medusa. I can see a Reflex save every round to avoid meeting her gaze or looking upon her (with a penalty unless one takes a penalty every round to hit rolls and AC for not looking).

 

[Greg K]

One rule i would like to see removed from 5e is permanent level drain from undead. I always liked the idea of levels just naturally returning 1/day, no need to make that saving throw, i always thought that was just too demoralizing. I don't even remember how 4e handled level drain.

Removed in 4e and it needs to stay gone and buried.