Saving Throws: What Should Become of Them?

[jodyjohnson]

Like the other effects, I believe that Level-Drain, Ability Drain and Ability damage will all be effects which will be keywords in the creature stats but subject to choice on the DM side.

DMG Chapter 4 pp35-45: Effects options other than hit point damage.

 

[Viking Bastard]

I really like 4e saving throws. Simple and functional. I wouldn't mind more modifiers, though, but I don't call for them.

 

[Greg K]

It didn't, primarily because level drains absolutely destroys a game where the math assumes the party is on an equal power footing.

For myself, the problem was that, in my opinion, level really describes nothing about the character. It is simply a metagame mechanic that indicates a character's rough level of overall power in the game unlike Strength, Dex, Con etc. which make sense in the "narrative"

Level and XP should stay metagame mechanics.

 

[drothgery]

I really like 4e saving throws. Simple and functional. I wouldn't mind more modifiers, though, but I don't call for them.

Though I don't think WotC completely understood the math on saves when designing powers, at least to start with; something that lasts until the end of your next turn is often more valuable than (save ends). Heck, as general rule, PC's abilities shouldn't give out (save ends).

 

[Wormwood]

Though I don't think WotC completely understood the math on saves when designing powers, at least to start with; something that lasts until the end of your next turn is often more valuable than (save ends). Heck, as general rule, PC's abilities shouldn't give out (save ends).

Yep. By the time you hit Paragon, most parties have so many abilities that grant early saves (many with bonuses) that my players actually dread 'until end of X next turn' effects *far* more than most save ends.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I still prefer the AD&D method of saves, but I could get behind the Fort/Ref/Will method if they only added one more category: device. That would fill the rod/staff/wand role of earlier editions. A neophyte pointing a wand at me shouldn't be as dangerous as a Mordenkainen fireball and this gets the job done without tying saves to an item creation/monetary system.

Also, save or dies must be a part of 5e for me to even give it a look.

 

[Viking Bastard]

Yep. By the time you hit Paragon, most parties have so many abilities that grant early saves (many with bonuses) that my players actually dread 'until end of X next turn' effects *far* more than most save ends.

That sound like a power problem, not a save problem.

 

[Ahnehnois]

3e did a lot right, and the fort-ref-will delineation should stay.

I would like to see ref saves and the ability to dodge attacks merged, as well as some clear relationship between fortitude saves and the response to injury.

These distinctions are the sort of thing beginners sniff out right away as making no sense. "Wait, I use this number to dodge a trap and this completely unrelated number to dodge an arrow". Frankly, I've seen people go to ridiculous lengths to try to justify this distinction rather than admitting it's an obvious flaw in the rules.

I prefer the roll in the hands of the defender, because it gives PCs a sense of control and shifts the numbers slightly in favor of non-casters. (Perhaps Ac should be equivalent to taking 10 on a ref save).

There also needs to be more granularity. 3e needed a medium save; so however the numbers pan out there need to be more than two categories of how good you are at making a save.

Also, save or dies must be a part of 5e for me to even give it a look.

I don't know. I'd be quite happy if a medusa turned you to stone without a save. But yes, save-or-die, save-or-sort-of-die, and save-or-be-useless need to exist to give the game any kind of credibility as a fantasy rpg.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Personally I don't like the 4e 'Saving throw' as it was taking a term which meant one thing and made it into a 'duration determination'.

For 5e I'd prefer to see saving throws return as something your character does to avoid a nasty effect, rather than the 4e passive defences and attacks vs defences for everything.

In my ideal vision of 5e (yeah, right!) there would be 6 saves - one for each ability. You might make a Dex save against a fireball, a Con save against poison, a Str save against web, a Wis save against illusion and so forth.

I wouldn't have 'save or die', but I'd have the mechanism I first saw late in 3.5 of 'save or suffer a bad effect and make an additional save or it gets worse' etc. Thus if you get hit by a petrification effect, try to save. Fail the first save and you are slowed and save again next round. Fail the second save and you are paralysed and save again the next round. Fail the third save and you are turned to stone. Making a save at any point allows you to shake off the effect at that point. It also gives the dramatic potential for mitigating action to be taken before reaching the final state - whether it is quaffing a potion, allies taking actions to help you make a save, useful spells being cast and so forth.

Cheers

 

[DonTadow]

Personally I don't like the 4e 'Saving throw' as it was taking a term which meant one thing and made it into a 'duration determination'.

For 5e I'd prefer to see saving throws return as something your character does to avoid a nasty effect, rather than the 4e passive defences and attacks vs defences for everything.

In my ideal vision of 5e (yeah, right!) there would be 6 saves - one for each ability. You might make a Dex save against a fireball, a Con save against poison, a Str save against web, a Wis save against illusion and so forth.

I wouldn't have 'save or die', but I'd have the mechanism I first saw late in 3.5 of 'save or suffer a bad effect and make an additional save or it gets worse' etc. Thus if you get hit by a petrification effect, try to save. Fail the first save and you are slowed and save again next round. Fail the second save and you are paralysed and save again the next round. Fail the third save and you are turned to stone. Making a save at any point allows you to shake off the effect at that point. It also gives the dramatic potential for mitigating action to be taken before reaching the final state - whether it is quaffing a potion, allies taking actions to help you make a save, useful spells being cast and so forth.

Cheers

I posted this in another thread, but I'll repost it hear (it feels more appropriate).

One of the things that always comes up when i introduce new players is there understanding of saves. What ability goes into what save is always a question of contention. I felt 4e started on a great path with this.

I like the idea of save defences. So what if, every ability had a related defense. I doodled this in the meeting
STR = Physical Defense/Armor Class
DEX = Reflex Defense
CON = Fortitude Defense
INT = Awareness Defense
WIS = Will Defense
CHA = Magic/Soul Defense

Whenever you make a magic attack and you beat the defense the spell indicates and Magic/Soul Defense, another effect takes place (or the full effect of the spell). Else its half the spell or another effect.

With this, you could eliminate spell inconsitency and having some spells save for half and others not.