Invited to play D20 modern...is it worth it?

[Naoki00_]

As the title suggests I've been invited to play in a D20 modern game and after taking a long looking over the rules and play style I have a lot of concerns...

firstly I don't want to use a gun, period. it's just a personal thing of mine but I don't really like using guns in these kinds of games, heck I don't like using a bow really. I just feel it's too out of my character type (being more personal and honor bound. I give my enemy respect, that means more knightly or samurai like stuff, not saying it's better or worse then anything else, just my way of prefered play.)

As for the melee I didn't see much support for it and don't quite see it as an option but I may have just missed it's main points.\

Secondly I don't really find it very....engaging, being used to the epic fantasy style and being able to be something more then just some normal guy (I like being the super hero, but save the day joe)

but enough of me picking...I gotta ask for anyone who has played the game, does it make up for the short comming it appears to have? I know it's mostly based on DM, but really I don't know how it could be made interesting to someone like me who doesn't find 'gritty' (to me it just looks nerfed and purposfully stacked against you) gameplay much fun. So should I give it a try and put my opinons aside or should I bow out before I get disappointed?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I want to say no worries, as I love the system, but it doesn't have good supported settings. Dark Matter, probably the last Modern setting book, is the only good published one IMO, and if you don't like magic, then you need to look at home brewing or third party stuff.

As the title suggests I've been invited to play in a D20 modern game and after taking a long looking over the rules and play style I have a lot of concerns...

firstly I don't want to use a gun, period. it's just a personal thing of mine but I don't really like using guns in these kinds of games, heck I don't like using a bow really. I just feel it's too out of my character type (being more personal and honor bound. I give my enemy respect, that means more knightly or samurai like stuff, not saying it's better or worse then anything else, just my way of prefered play.)

That is no problem. Guns are very weak in that setting. Even the Gunslinger class has weak offense.

Fighting gun-using opponents is very easy, as Modern guns have less range than in real life. My first Modern PC was a martial artist, but of course he took levels in Fast too. He took increased speed twice (he didn't take Evasion), Jump and Tumble, which meant that he could attack an opponent from 80 feet away even if that meant jumping a 15 foot gap between high-rise buildings, and if the opponent took cover behind a low wall (which prevents charges, on the grounds that humans cannot run through brick walls) he could jump over it and Flying Kick them in the face for massive damage.

(Even an action movie hero like James Bond can usually only do that kind of thing if the opponent is 15 feet or less away. Which is why gunshots are accurate inside buildings in a Bond film, but outside no one can hit anything; the ranges are low, and Bond is fast.)

As for the melee I didn't see much support for it and don't quite see it as an option but I may have just missed it's main points.

You don't see much support? Melee Smash is king! It lets you do good damage with something as small as a knife, or martial arts. (My first Modern character was a Strong 3/Fast 3/Martial Artist 2 at campaign end. He was doing 1d6+5 damage a hit, and only had a Strength of 14. That let him boost Dex instead, giving him a great Defense. And of course, he could trip people...)

A 1st-level Strong Hero with Strength 15 and a collapsible baton is doing 1d6+3 damage at start, 0.5 damage less than a handgun. The same hero using a fireaxe is doing 1d8+4 damage at start (using it in two hands), which is more than a handgun and 0.5 damage less than an M16. Melee damage increases, whereas the only way to boost firearms damage is to take the Soldier class (or spend action points with ten levels of Gunslinger). And of course, the Soldier's Weapon Specialization ability applies to whatever weapon you want - even unarmed attacks. Or fire axes, if you want. (If you're using a light weapon, take Streetfighting, although that feat gets weaker when you get multiple attacks from your high BAB.)

Melee isn't weak, and it's only stronger in gameplay, when you consider you have more options. There are fewer options for guns, such as no cover fire. Feats like Double Tap and Burst Fire do you let you boost damage, but at a penalty to hit, sort of like taking Power Attack for melee.

Secondly I don't really find it very....engaging, being used to the epic fantasy style and being able to be something more then just some normal guy (I like being the super hero, but save the day joe)

That's why you need a good setting/campaign. Commandos or crime fighters is probably more interesting than playing an accountant.

but enough of me picking...I gotta ask for anyone who has played the game, does it make up for the short comming it appears to have? I know it's mostly based on DM, but really I don't know how it could be made interesting to someone like me who doesn't find 'gritty' (to me it just looks nerfed and purposfully stacked against you) gameplay much fun. So should I give it a try and put my opinons aside or should I bow out before I get disappointed?

It's not that gritty, and sometimes gets criticized for how hard it is to kill a PC with things like grenades. Assuming no magic, the Surgery feat is a pretty good healer. It's a bit like taking an extended rest. Make sure you have a surgeon; the good news is boosting Treat Injury is easy, and you can be a combatant with the skill, meaning you don't have to take Dedicated levels if you don't want to.

 

[wingsandsword]

As to the guns vs. melee thing, yeah you can melee in d20 modern, it's a d20 game, it's not like there is no support for it. The Archaic Weaponmaster and Martial Artist advanced classes come to mind, and many abilities of the Strong Hero base class, for example.

However. . .it's a game set in the modern world and there is a reason that firearms are the typical weapon, because they are generally better.

You, as a player, don't like to play characters that use guns, even in a modern-day game?

As for it not being heroic enough and just being a "normal guy", were Jason Bourne, James Bond or John Rambo "normal guys"? Just because you don't cast spells or have supernatural powers doesn't mean you're a wimp, especially in d20 Modern. A well-built physical combatant can completely take apart a spellcaster in that game, and being a spellcaster is less overpowering than it is in D&D.

 

[Pbartender]

As the title suggests I've been invited to play in a D20 modern game and after taking a long looking over the rules and play style I have a lot of concerns...

firstly I don't want to use a gun, period. it's just a personal thing of mine but I don't really like using guns in these kinds of games, heck I don't like using a bow really. I just feel it's too out of my character type (being more personal and honor bound. I give my enemy respect, that means more knightly or samurai like stuff, not saying it's better or worse then anything else, just my way of prefered play.)

Oh, boy... You should watch more classic Westerns (note that quite a few of them are remakes of Kurosawa's samurai films).

The showdown at high-noon? Pistols from 20 paces at dawn? A sharpshooter can show just as much honor and respect to his enemies as any sword fighter can.

As for the melee I didn't see much support for it and don't quite see it as an option but I may have just missed it's main points.

Take a closer look at some of the Advanced Classes, and you'll see it. the Martial Artist and the Soldier are both designed to accommodate the sort of melee action you want.

So should I give it a try and put my opinons aside...

Yes, you should.

The characters are built upon a different power curve than standard 3E D&D is. However, I can tell you I once ran a RIFTS-like post-apocalyptic game using D20 Modern, and slightly published D&D adventures. It worked just fine, and everybody had a lot of fun.

Like you said, if you've got a half decent DM and you don't dwell on the preconceptions, you'll have fun... Try something outside what you would usually play and stretch your RPing muscles. Otherwise, a character like what you're used to playing can be made to order. In fact the Iconic Strong Hero "Russel Whitfield" (The guy with the dreadlocks and the sword on the front cover of the rulebook) is just the sort of character you're look for.

 

[Naoki00_]

I want to say no worries, as I love the system, but it doesn't have good supported settings. Dark Matter, probably the last Modern setting book, is the only good published one IMO, and if you don't like magic, then you need to look at home brewing or third party stuff.



That is no problem. Guns are very weak in that setting. Even the Gunslinger class has weak offense.



You don't see much support? Melee Smash is king! It lets you do good damage with something as small as a knife, or martial arts. (My first Modern character was a Strong 3/Fast 3/Martial Artist 2 at campaign end. He was doing 1d6+5 damage a hit, and only had a Strength of 14. That let him boost Dex instead, giving him a great Defense. And of course, he could trip people...)



That's why you need a good setting/campaign. Commandos or crime fighters is probably more interesting than playing an accountant.



It's not that gritty, and sometimes gets criticized for how hard it is to kill a PC with things like grenades. Assuming no magic, the Surgery feat is a pretty good healer. It's a bit like taking an extended rest. Make sure you have a surgeon; the good news is boosting Treat Injury is easy, and you can be a combatant with the skill, meaning you don't have to take Dedicated levels if you don't want to.

Thanks Severed, this does help my opinion a good bit. and I didn't really see much for melee I guess cause I'm used to playing lvs 5-10 in dnd 3.5, wielding +4 weapons with fire/shock/or ice damage on it with a 5-7 str mod.....so I guess it just looks like very little to me lol.

I do still have a few uncertaintys about some things though. Like what are the classes thats really worth taking? I read through the main ones (the only I'd be allowed to pick) and there a bit bland. I couldn't find anything that grabbed me to them, or anything that really looked like something fun to do since it boiled down to- I hit things(strong), I shoot stuff(fast), I'm a brain(smart), I'm...wise?(dedicated), I wish I was a strong hero(tough). I'm just too used to the DnD classes maybe.

Also, some of the rules were a bit odd and jarring, like do Action points ever come back? and if not whats the use they have? And non-lethal seems like a useless thing now.

 

[Naoki00_]

As to the guns vs. melee thing, yeah you can melee in d20 modern, it's a d20 game, it's not like there is no support for it. The Archaic Weaponmaster and Martial Artist advanced classes come to mind, and many abilities of the Strong Hero base class, for example.

However. . .it's a game set in the modern world and there is a reason that firearms are the typical weapon, because they are generally better.

You, as a player, don't like to play characters that use guns, even in a modern-day game?

As for it not being heroic enough and just being a "normal guy", were Jason Bourne, James Bond or John Rambo "normal guys"? Just because you don't cast spells or have supernatural powers doesn't mean you're a wimp, especially in d20 Modern. A well-built physical combatant can completely take apart a spellcaster in that game, and being a spellcaster is less overpowering than it is in D&D.

Oh, boy... You should watch more classic Westerns (note that quite a few of them are remakes of Kurosawa's samurai films).

The showdown at high-noon? Pistols from 20 paces at dawn? A sharpshooter can show just as much honor and respect to his enemies as any sword fighter can.



Take a closer look at some of the Advanced Classes, and you'll see it. the Martial Artist and the Soldier are both designed to accommodate the sort of melee action you want.



Yes, you should.

The characters are built upon a different power curve than standard 3E D&D is. However, I can tell you I once ran a RIFTS-like post-apocalyptic game using D20 Modern, and slightly published D&D adventures. It worked just fine, and everybody had a lot of fun.

Like you said, if you've got a half decent DM and you don't dwell on the preconceptions, you'll have fun... Try something outside what you would usually play and stretch your RPing muscles. Otherwise, a character like what you're used to playing can be made to order. In fact the Iconic Strong Hero "Russel Whitfield" (The guy with the dreadlocks and the sword on the front cover of the rulebook) is just the sort of character you're look for.

you guys actualy posted right before I posted my second comment lol

I only have the main core book so that doesn't help my scope of classes and options, but the archaic weapons master and martial artist sound right down my ally.

And I've never disputed that westerns are great and I do love the high noon stand off, it's one of my favorite parts in movies! that sort of gunplay I like watching, and can even get behind in a game, but with how the massive damge rules looked I guess I just see most people taking cover and only popping out to shoot (like the one time I played a 'gritty' setting dnd game, it was more realistic with damage, and everyone but me was an archer that loved cover like they married it).

Maybe I'm just paranoid and thinking a bit too hard on how things look at face value, since I don't like 'modern' based combat usually...I don't even enjoy army movies most of the time cause i just wish there where more face to face confrontations and not 'how can we get rid of more people without them knowing we did?' scenarios (keep in mind I haven't actually SEEN many good army movies or anything, soooo I'm not well educated on that)

edit since I forgot to mention it: I don't concider Bond or Bourne or Rambo to be 'normal' those guys are above being normal because of what they do and how good they are at it, almost like an inborn ability to be awesome...I like to think they always had that 'being better at things' feeling.

 

[wingsandsword]

I read through the main ones (the only I'd be allowed to pick) and there a bit bland. I couldn't find anything that grabbed me to them, or anything that really looked like something fun to do since it boiled down to- I hit things(strong), I shoot stuff(fast), I'm a brain(smart), I'm...wise?(dedicated), I wish I was a strong hero(tough). I'm just too used to the DnD classes maybe.

Okay, for d20 Modern, there is some change to the D&D 3.x model of classes.

Your Base Classes: Strong, Fast, Tough, Smart, Dedicated and Charismatic Heroes, are really just generic sets of themed abilities related to an ability score. It's meant to be able to mix & match to get the abilities you want.

There are no multiclassing penalties, and the classes only go to 10 levels because they expect you to multiclass. It's kind of like a hybrid of a classless/point buy system and a class-based system, since it has classes, but they are very generic sets of abilities meant to be mixed to fit a concept instead of instant pre-fab characters.

Advanced Classes are more like classic D&D classes, but you can't take them until at least 4th level since the prereqs always require at least 3 levels of Base Classes.

There are Prestige Classes in d20 Modern, at least a few in the Urban Arcana supplement, but they tend to be very setting specific (among others there's a Holy Knight in there that's essentially a Paladin for a modern-day settings that have magic, and there's a Web Enhancement that has a SpecOp Prestige Class for Special Operations forces), but PrC's are a very small part of the class picture.

To get a handle on the idea of how Base Classes work, think how you could create various characters combining them. A typical infantryman might be a Strong/Tough, while a police officer might be a Strong/Dedicated. A Physician might be a Smart/Dedicated, while a street thug might be a Fast/Strong.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The Strong Hero/Martial Artist can be very deadly and very effective. Guns may look impressive with their two dice of damage, but you get to roll one die and a bonus which amounts to pretty much the same end result.

But generally - if you're invited to a game with an unknown rules system and/or setting, and you have the time. I'd try to join it. Maybe it rocks, maybe it doesn't. But the first will probably be compensate for any cases of the second.

Don't worry about the core classes being "lame". They are more toolkits to build the character you envison. Look at the skill list and talents and see if they are what you like.

I will say right out that I think d20 Modern is flawed and imperfect, but it depends on the group and playstyle wether that matters.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I do still have a few uncertaintys about some things though. Like what are the classes thats really worth taking? I read through the main ones (the only I'd be allowed to pick) and there a bit bland. I couldn't find anything that grabbed me to them, or anything that really looked like something fun to do since it boiled down to- I hit things(strong), I shoot stuff(fast), I'm a brain(smart), I'm...wise?(dedicated), I wish I was a strong hero(tough). I'm just too used to the DnD classes maybe.

Probably.

Now that 4e is out, I find it very difficult to make d20 Modern characters, as they don't fill game "roles" exactly. Also, the mental classes are a tad weaker.

The classes don't create a role in 4e. You the player do. Don't think "fighter", think "katana specialist" or "brawler". Don't think "charismatic", think "con man" or "businessman".

To further inform you, once you've got your character idea set and picked a good occupation (only pick occupations that give you new class skills; yes you can be a Strong Hero with Treat Injury; call yourself a "field medic") then you start picking talents.

The mental class talents are usually the more interesting ones, actually. I particularly like Inspiration (the 3rd-level Charismatic talent) and Plan (the Smart Hero equivalent).

Also, some of the rules were a bit odd and jarring, like do Action points ever come back? and if not whats the use they have? And non-lethal seems like a useless thing now.

Action points come back with level. They stack too. You end up with PCs who hoard a huge useless stack of them as they're afraid of using them. The Dedicated Hero's Faith talent, the Martial Artist's Fists of Iron and the Gunslinger all find good uses for them. (The Gunslinger has a low attack bonus but multiple attacks, and can spend AP for high damage at high levels.)

Non-lethal damage is useless, it's often the first thing house-ruled. If you need to knock someone out, use a taser. The only reason to ever take Brawl is if you want to take Streetfighting. Knockout Punch is also powerful, but very hard to use.

 

[wedgeski]

I'll tell you what I know.

A few years back I ran a d20M campaign with a kind of "Truth is Out There" Cthulhu-like vibe (quite different than the default Urban Arcana), and I had some of the most fun times I can remember in respect of adventure and world building. I loved the rules, I loved the books, I loved the art, and I was endlessly inspired.

My players, not so much. After a strong start the campaign fizzled after about eight sessions, and in canvassing feedback afterwards only one of four said that they thought d20 translated well into a modern setting.

That's all I have to offer. Take from it what you will, and I hope if you do decide to play you have a great time.