Retraining?

[Li Shenron]

Its not powergamers that need retraining. Its the average Joe player who hasn't memorized every feat, power, and spell in the book.

Not IMXP. I played with definitely more average Joes than powergamers, and average Joes do not whine about their bad choices nearly as much as powergamers do. In fact, by definition average Joes do not need to "memorize every feat, power and spells in the book" to enjoy the game... if they feel they need to do that, it means they are powergamers! (or powergamers wannabe, at least)

I think that the fact that so many people here believe that knowing every character option and then making the perfect character creation is "needed" (even if it's just the core) in order to play well, is a sign that they are in fact powergamers at heart. Which obviously isn't against the law... but it just tells that retraining rules are exactly for powergamers. It's powergamers who are terribly afraid of making a sub-par choice, not average Joes.

I didn't mention this before, but I am not a mean DM, and I've always allowed my average Joes to delay choosing some level-up features if they sincerely weren't prepared for making a choice.

But whenever I played in a game with retraining rules, IMXP those 2 cases I mentioned before always come up: (a) there's always someone who has preplanned his PC even more maximized by purposefully choosing e.g. the best spells/feats for low levels knowing that he would drop them later when they're not so good anymore. This is not wrong, but it doesn't compel me enough to add retraining rules to my games, also because they are an excuse for bad spells design (i.e. designing spells that work only at low levels because after all you can drop them, instead of designing spells and other stuff that never make you regret your choice). (b) some of the average Joes don't know what to choose, and instead of trusting the DM's suggestions (or in my case, delay the choice and give it another thought at home) there is the same powergamer guy at point (a) forcing them to speed up choosing whatever since they can always drop it later, discouraging the average Joe from trying to become a better-than-average Joe because the powergamer cannot wait for him.

 

[Li Shenron]

...wait, come back everyone, someone tell me why this hobby is dying?

The hobby is dying because people are not having fun because they are stuck with bad choices?

I am not so sure the hobby is dying at all, but have you at least noticed that the edition which is having problems does in fact have retraining rules? At the same time, the main competitor also have retraiing rules, so this cannot be the reason. Have you noticed that the edition which they are now exiting much sooner than expected is the one which focused all the design effort on a certain type of fun? Have you noticed how many people write every day threads about wanting to go back to OD&D and AD&D or at least bringing back some of their gaming element, and the most suggested elements are exactly those who give the characters and the players a harder time?

I think you can see what the "split" in the gamers base really is all about. Two wildly different concepts of fun: one based on having an easy time, the other based on having a hard time. A monument should be erected to the 5e designers if they really manage to cater both.

 

[SensoryThought]

I allow retraining, but it is rarely taken up by my players. They tend to do it for powers that seemed cool but in practice they find they never or rarely use.

In some cases you can also explain retraining as a more evolved form or specialized form of an existing power (a lightning wizard changing magic missile for lightning arc). Honestly, you have to explain power replacement at higher levels so I don't see what the big problem is.

And I don't care if my players min max their stats if that's what they like.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

I don't like retraining rules at all. Forgetting a skill is ridiculous. Making it a rule makes it part of the physics of the RPG. I'd far rather do a flat out retcon than have retraining in the rules.

 

[Tallifer]

Absolutely not. Retraining does not make any since. I can’t evade my logic to accept retraining no matter how hard I try. How do you explain retraining? I mean how do you explain if one day I decided that the skills I learned driving a car were no longer needed and that I can just trade my driving skills for piloting a jet skills? This is kind of absurd, especial with my analogy, but my point is solid. Retraining seems to be a cushion for bad mistakes or a tool for min-maxers, not to mention it completely breaks the fourth wall. I someone takes their time to learn something and later decides they wished they would have learned something else…too bad. There are plenty of people with college educations with the same problem. Just because this is a game does not mean we should be shielded and protected from our own bad decisions. More learning is made from the mistakes we make, that’s life. Maybe it’s me, but I enjoy playing my games without the training wheels.

Retraining is simple and a part of everyday life.

I learned how to drive a car when I was 16. I can still drive it on the road, but because I have spent the past twenty five years in the downtown of cities where I do need a car at all, I can no longer parallel park or switch lanes in thick traffic easily or follow signs and turn-offs like I used to be able.

In the meantime I have become an excellent teacher of English, able to teach almost any level or age. I had no clue about pedagogy or dealing with children ten years ago.

In my university years I studied hard enough at Latin to pass the Master's and Doctoral level translation examinations for mediaeval Studies: now I can barely read an inscription in a church. However I can speak and read basic Korean.

Your brain can only hold so much information. Most people cannot be good at everything. And many people make radical career changes in their lives which also change their skills after some time.

 

[Alzrius]

Retraining is simple and a part of everyday life.

I learned how to drive a car when I was 16. I can still drive it on the road, but because I have spent the past twenty five years in the downtown of cities where I do need a car at all, I can no longer parallel park or switch lanes in thick traffic easily or follow signs and turn-offs like I used to be able.

You're not wrong; I think that the issue here is that retraining is, to some people, a sudden spot of verisimilitude that, by contrast, highlights the lack of verisimilitude in the rest of the system.

You mention that retraining involves skills being lost due to a lack of use. That's true...but why is it limited to retraining? If I haven't used my Climb skill in the last few adventures, does its bonus go down? If so, do I get those skill points back?

That's not even highlighting the fact that there's also a degree of cognitive dissonance in that retraining is an active choice to forget old knowledge in favor of new knowledge. I don't say "I've decided to forget how to climb very well, and shall instead learn how to haggle better."

 

[Hassassin]

Like 4e, where retraining is an inherent part of leveling up, and not doing it leaves you with a weaker character? No, I don't like it.

I think some guidelines for non-retcon retraining are a good idea. For example, every time you get a new X you can also swap one one X for something of equivalent level, or if you want to swap without level up you spend some down time. (X can be spell, skill, feat, etc.)

Retcon retraining (I was always a paladin) should be purely an agreement with the DM and other players, and requires at most a mention next to the above rules.

 

[Dragonblade]

Let me be blunt, and I expect some controversy with this.

No player should ever be forced to play a PC they are unsatisfied with. Now does that mean a player should have carte blanche to totally rebuild their PC whenever they feel like it? Of course not.

But if trapping players into a bad choice is a legitimate means of preventing powergaming, then there are serious problems with the game, the DM, or the players. Its time to stop and evaluate what the real issues are.

 

[Alzrius]

This thread should be retitled "Retraining - Gamist or Simulationist Approach?"

It seems appropriate since the people for retraining and the people against it are having two different discussions.

 

[Li Shenron]

Retraining is simple and a part of everyday life.

I learned how to drive a car when I was 16. I can still drive it on the road, but because I have spent the past twenty five years in the downtown of cities where I do need a car at all, I can no longer parallel park or switch lanes in thick traffic easily or follow signs and turn-offs like I used to be able.

In the meantime I have become an excellent teacher of English, able to teach almost any level or age. I had no clue about pedagogy or dealing with children ten years ago.

In my university years I studied hard enough at Latin to pass the Master's and Doctoral level translation examinations for mediaeval Studies: now I can barely read an inscription in a church. However I can speak and read basic Korean.

Your brain can only hold so much information. Most people cannot be good at everything. And many people make radical career changes in their lives which also change their skills after some time.

All this is true, but you're talking about another subject, that of getting worst at what you're not using/cultivating. This is different, and has never been supported in D&D because it can be a nightmare to handle.

Retraining is about voluntarily forsake an ability to get another one in its place. There is no such thing in real life as "I want to forget Latin next week so that I can start speaking Korean quickly". Retraining rules are metagaming rules (not that I necessarily have something against metagaming, just against retraining rules) because they are mostly intended for pretending you never had the first ability, so it's best not to use too many analogies to RL or it just makes the matter worst.