Idle Musings: Inverted Interrupts, Focus Fire, and Combat Flow

After thinking about it, when I say narrative I really mean - following book or movie narrative conventions or tropes.

The rules support what have become the standard D&D tropes or conventions. Such as: Kill the wizard/healer first, go for the first round kill on the villain, never take prisoners, let nothing escape, fight to the death, basic "If I were an Evil Overlord" type stuff -- i.e. smart play.

If D&D were a James Bond spy game he would end every movie with a sniper headshot from 1000 meters and when Bond ever got captured one of the lackeys would just double-tap him in the back of the head.

It's really group social contract type stuff but the rules work against it most of the time.

Can't argue with that. In my experience a lot of D&D play settles into ruthless efficiency and wandering bands of homicidal tomb looters. Which is fine with me when I want a swords and sorcery feel in my game. Conan, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were all pretty ruthless and homicidal.

If I want high, romantic fantasy in a game (King Arthur, LoTR) I choose a system that integrates personality mechanics and places less emphasis on combat and treasure. I can't recommend "The One Ring" enough, even my current band of lovable looters, really enjoyed it and got into the feel and pace of Middle Earth.

There are plenty of shades in between and other flavors of fantasy, obviously; but I don't think D&D will ever be a good, any style you want, fantasy system. So I like that Mike and Monte are trying to distill the new rules down to the essence of D&D. When that essence doesn't suit a campaign I want to run, I'll play a different game that does.
 

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I prefer the term "Triggered free action" myself. :)

Without using a reactive action of some sort characters need some way to enforce the line. How about somethisng as simple as if two allies are within 10 feet of each other and opponent cannot move between them, a wall counts as an ally. (the wall case is for the wizard/fighter scenario).

I'm still reaching for simpler and naturalistic in feel.

Yeah, that could work. I find that when thinking about these kind of "phased movement to simulate chaotic, simultaneous skirmish"--that it helps to visualize how it woud work in both 3E/4E cyclic initiative and early D&D side by side initiative. Otherwise, it is easy to start thinking of each step in the action as discrete.
 

This idea attempts to invert assumptions about "being engaged/distracted" so that the default is that you often are during combat. However, if you aren't, you get extra opportunities, as opposed to penalties/limits when so engaged/distracted.


Thoughts?

I think this is an awesome idea. The only thing you have to be careful about is that it is much easier to engage a melee character than a ranged character. So the benefits of being unengaged have to be bigger for a melee character. As first pass to hack this into 4e, you could say that ranged abilities work as written if the PC is unengaged and have a hefty penalty if engaged while the melee PC's abilities work as written if engaged and have a bonus if the PC is unengaged.

This should also be a good way to ditch the battle map. If you for example say any power that pushes by 2 or more removes an engaged status from the PC attacked by the enemy.
 
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Sorry about my little tangent on focus fire.

I played a lot of DragonQuest baclk in the day. For about 10 years between 1985 and 1995 it was my group's system of choice. I have very fond memories of DQs differencing of Close, Melee (engaged) and not Engaged. Though if I remember correctly, DQ gave resolved the engaged actions first and then you resolved the unengaged characters.

I'm not sure I would like to see a lot of changes to abilities based on engagment status, though some actions being available might work. What I really liked about how DQ treated engaged was the way it changed the movement rules. Once you were engaged you had to change your movement mode or get hit with a reaction attack.

I know you are looking for non-interrupt ways to handle combat flow, but I think a small number of tightly defined triggers that lead to free attacks gives a more natural feel and (dis)incentive to behaviors you want to inhibit. I think you need to have some level of risk for ignoring an opponent to reinforce the benefit you might gain for being unengaged. Otherwise I think you'll get a far number of players deciding the gain isn't worth the effort of achieving and their behavior won't change.

If you make the benfit too great, you run the risk of introducing another kind of gamist approach to combat. Seeking to remain disengaged when it would make more sense in story to stay up close and personal.

I think a little stick and a little carrot is going to get more traction with players than either alone.
 

I think interrupts should cost you your next standard action. Sort of what happened in Starwars when you decide to deflect shots with the lightsaber.
 


Very Cool!

I've used the idea of "engaged" also in my houserules as concerns AoO, in almost the exact same way you have. But you've definitely gone a lot farther into this concept than I have...but in very cool and interesting ways. I especially like what you've done with unengaged characters. I hadn't thought of that at all.

I may use most of what you've done here to expand this in my houserules.

Outstanding Work!:cool:
 

Now that we've settled down from the initial round of discussion, let's address the first tricky handling issue: How best to track "engaged" or "disengaged" in such a system, that won't end up eating too much into the benefits of the system.

The essential nature of the problem is this. We want the "normal" thing to be that most creatures are engaged most rounds. So ideally, we'd like to be able to track only the "disengaged" state. Yet, "disengaged" in this system is a negative thing, which you can't easily test for. Or rather, it is defined as, "over the last round, nothing happened that caused me to be engaged."


I can think of three semi-reasonable ways to handle the tracking:
  1. Eyeball it, with the default being that if you can't assert "disengaged" for a creature, it isn't. Wizbang's turn comes around. Player starts to do something, then says, "Wait a second. No one even tried to hit me this time, I didn't move, and I attempted no saving throws. I'm disengaged!"
  2. Mark with some standard token that every creature is "disengaged" at the end of their action. We are probably assuming a cyclic initiative with this one. If you do anything or have done to you anything that "engages" you, you lose the token. If you've still got it next time you start to act, you are disengaged. Obviously, you can do this with tick marks or other tracking systems, too.
  3. For a side by side initiative system, declare intents to engage but not exact means, before initiative is rolled each round. If someone went after you, you are engaged, whether they hit you or not. If someone didn't go after you, and you did nothing else to change it, you are disengaged.
Note that there are some different expectations of what exactly makes you engaged or disengaged there. Since part of the purpose of such a system is to speed up play, then some engaged triggers might need subtle differences depending upon the tracking method chosen.

Better ideas?
 

Glad I finally got around to reading this thread. I've tried some similar ideas in the past, but not with much success, usually because I eventually found the state-tracking tedious, especially if there are a dozen little rules required to figure out who is engaged and who is not. So I'm watching with interest to see if these problems can be overcome.

Focus fire is usually such a good strategy in RPGs because the single most important resource in combat is almost always the action. In a purely gamist sense one might say that is the point of combat. Furthermore, the importance of the action is often amplified because in most games opponents remain fairly effective until they actually die (and for good reason because death spirals severe enough to change that calculus are often a pain to use and introduce a lot of side effects.)

The approach I eventually developed ensures there is a tension between focus-firing and spreading out attacks at a slightly higher level of abstraction. It performs that task not by modeling engagement/disengagement based on specific actions or circumstances but by modeling the consequences of taking or refraining from actions with respect to other creatures.

It is a momentum system, where success grants a creature attempting anything of significance with a spendable benefit that can be applied to a future attack, defense, or skill use, etc. Creatures that are being ignored by their enemies tend to accumulate momentum (because they don't have to spend it to boost their defenses) or simply pump it back out in the form of more vicious attacks (and a greater chance to earn yet more momentum). This upends the usual power of focus fire because ignored enemies actually become more dangerous (or at least more flexible) the longer they are ignored. And even creatures that are being ignored have to be careful, because if they blow all their momentum on attacks when someone finally does attack them they might be left in an awkward position.

So engaged vs. disengaged is no longer a matter of specific actions or relationships, but a consequence of incentivizing other creatures to spend momentum in order to stay in the fight. The rules to achieve this don't need to be complicated as long as it is clear how every aspect of the game can contribute momentum and how it could spend it. For a game with a well-defined core mechanic that means a few simple rules probably cover 80% of all cases.

In play I've observed this lead to very dramatic changes in tactics as a creature shifts its focus between offense and defense simply by how it spends momentum, or as minor threats become major ones and back again. Combat has a distinct ebb-and-flow as creatures spread their attention around while also trying to finish someone off, and as the freedom to spend momentum more freely gets passed around the battlefield.

Here is an example of how it works for players. In my homebrew game momentum tends to be the major source of spell points for spell casters, even though they have a daily reserve. (Roughly speaking dedicated spellcasters of any power tend to have enough spell points to cast their best spell 4-6 times per day before running out, and a bit less than that at the very beginning.) A wizard that truly wants to go nova in this game must spend spell points from their daily reserve and then expend momentum to improve the spell's attack. That means players usually spend the wizard's daily spell points quite conservatively, since spending them without momentum is good but not amazing, and it also means a wizard without any daily resources isn't necessarily reduced to a crossbow or even his "at-wills". Of course, if said wizard is being attacked and needs to spend momentum bolstering his defenses instead he'll find that the spells he can cast will probably be rather limited. But the balance can always shift back if the creature attacking the wizard is ignoring the party fighter, because it won't take long for that fighter to absolutely mess up a single opponent, giving the wizard a chance to slip away. Thus, engaging a creature is both a way for the attacker to press his advantage or to dull his opponent's advantage before it becomes too great.

Now, this was implemented in a success-based system and how I might do the same in D&D is not something I've really considered. Some critical things in my implementation, like gaining more momentum for better successes, and making gaining more momentum harder for creatures that already have a lot, probably don't interpret directly into a d20 system. Nevertheless, one can start to see some possibilities. For example, a rogue with momentum 4 might simply be able to expend them to add 4d6 to sneak attack. Therefore a regular sneak attack might be good, a high-momentum one devastating, and the PC doesn't have to worry about whether they are engaged or disengaged, they can simply use sneak attack and decide if they want the extra damage or not.

Anyway, as alternate approach to achieving some of the goals of this thread I thought this basic outline may interest some of you. If Crazy Jerome would like to keep this thread more focused on the engagement/disengagment idea (which is worth pursuing) I wouldn't oppose forking the discussion.
 

Anyway, as alternate approach to achieving some of the goals of this thread I thought this basic outline may interest some of you. If Crazy Jerome would like to keep this thread more focused on the engagement/disengagment idea (which is worth pursuing) I wouldn't oppose forking the discussion.

Either forked or here is fine. It is a different approach, but there should be enough cross-over between the two to make discussion of both fruitful.

For example, one of the things that immediately occurred to me reading your post was that such a system was in some ways similar to the Mongoose Runequest II "combat maneuver" system. MRQII doesn't have any direct concept of gaining or losing "CAs" by being ignored. However, because CAs are spent on defense, anyone being ignored is automatically much more effective. Another big difference is that getting hit hard in MRQII is more a feature of bad luck or running out of CAs. That is, it punishes being engaged more than it rewards being disengaged--which is often a characteristic of systems that require active defense.

It wasn't clear to me whether your system does require active defense or not. I guess that I'm looking to either avoid active defense or at least do it differently than many systems have done, both for ease of handling and to keep well away from the "punish" aspect of being engaged. Specifically, I don't want to add something that makes a single creature being engaged by several opponents any worse than it already is--such as effectively locking down actions to defense. Getting ganged up on is already bad enough--thus the attractiveness of focus fire.

Consider a solo fight, such as a dragon. If the dragon can "engage" with is breath weapon, then he can keep things on an even footing.
 

Imagine defense always requiring a die roll. Each character has two dice. If one of the dice is spent before a character acts the charater is engaged. If the character has two dice then both can be used for offense. After acting the character recovers both dice.

Defense is thus dynamic. If I'm attacked by arrows I must roll defense (14) and add my AC (5), if the arrow hits home and I need to save against it's poison my defense for the round is still 14, and to that I add my Fort (7).
 

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